Reflected UV - tanTALK

Haole Mark · 04-22-2002, 04:18 AM

Hello Don. Let me start by saying I very much appreciate all the scientific info yo provide here. I will be opening my first salon late this year and have been lurking here for months. My question refers to Chipp's remarks about reflected UV rays. Seems to have some merritt although with canopy closed on beds as well as the absorbing caracteristic of most types of cieling material is this a substantial concern? I don't want to build and find new laws in 10 months telling me to rebuild.
Thank you in advance. Aloha,Mark

Don Smith · 04-22-2002, 08:40 AM

Mark:

I can't find it. Tell me where it is and I'll go look at what the "Chipster" had to say.

Don

Haole Mark · 04-22-2002, 10:05 AM

Thank you Don for replying so fast. Searching "ceilings" Chipp on 5/1/01 under the topic of "eye damage to staff"...also saw posts by Chipp at other times regarding this issue...only recently learn how to use the "search" feature so this is how I found the topic again.

Don Smith · 04-23-2002, 03:12 AM

Mark:

You can prove to yourself that this is just another of the Chipster's crazy ideas.

Tke a Solartech "MED/hour" hand-held radiometer and measure the "output" of the tanning bed 1 foot, 2 feet, 3, feet, 6 feet etc., away from the bed. You will find out that the "irradiance" decreases VERY quickly. Someone walking down the hall (even if the door was open and the canopy was up - which isn't going to happen) would be exposed to a negligible "dose" of UVR. The same would be true of a staff member working at the front desk.

Having said this, ALWAYS wear protective eyewear when you are working on a sunbed. I buy "clear" UVR protective "shields" that are large enough to go over my regular glasses that allow me to see what I am doing.

Chippp posts some "good stuff" from time-to-time but not this time!

Don

Chippp · 04-23-2002, 12:22 PM

Salon owners salon, after dark, turn on all your tanning machines, leave the tops of the beds open, yes clients will trun the bed on before the tops are closed, now turn off all the regular lights in your salon, you will be suprised how much uv light is spilling over the walls and through lovered doors if your salon has such doors and walls that do not go to the ceilings.

If you meter, the meter may show no uv light.
But your own eyes can see how much light is bouncing all around the salon off the ceiling tiles from the tanning machines.

This light may just cause eye strain, or could cause uv exposure in very small amounts but over very long times, like an 8 hour or longer work shift day after day.

Why not insure from the design of the salon to block these uv light exposures?
You do not need to use the old method of walls with venting space at the top, you can easily vent the rooms into the ceiling space or into large vents in the ceiling.

Why would anyone if they don't need to allow uv light to reflect into common areas of the salon?

This is just another area of salon safty that we as salon owners can deal with on our own with out the possible need to be regulated into doing so.

Even If it is a "non issue" as don says, then there is still no valid reason to still use the old part wall method when constructing a new salon when you have other design posibilities.

It is always better to be safe then sorry.

I feel better knowing my eyes and my staffs eyes are not exposed to uv light when working.

All so just how sensitive are the cheap uv meters? and how low a dose and for how long would you wantt your eyes exposed to uv at work when they did not need to be?

Part of the reason I bring this up is , if you buy a black light the low 40 watt or lower , you know the uva disco hippy light of old, even they come with warnings not to expose to your eyes, and that great concern for eye safty should be used if they are used in a work place were peoples eyes may be exposed to them for long hours.

I do know that I do not experance the eye strain and soreness and redness,I once did now that our salon does not use the part wall style of design.

_________________

Tanning Booths, for people that want only the very best.
Fast, Comfortable, Dark Tanning and Hygienic.
Don't get booth envy, get a booth.[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-23 12:27 ]

Don Smith · 04-23-2002, 12:31 PM

Chipster:

Are you for real?

"Light bouncing off the walls"?

Puleeze! Chippp, STOP posting this nonsense!

The visible wavelengths of light (400 - 700 nm) ARE NOT going to hurt your eyes in the "intensilty levels" you are talking about. What do you think is emitted by our overhead lights? And what do you think allows us to "see" outdoors?

Stop it, Chippp!

Don

solarmeter · 04-23-2002, 01:18 PM

If anybody really cares about this, there are two new high sensitivity meters not shown on the website. They measure in micro rather than milli watts, and WILL pick up "scattered/stray" UV light. You don't have to turn off the regular ceiling lights, because the meters reject visible light.

Yes they are "cheap" compared to some fancy ones like Spectronics, but they tell the truth better (long story).

Model 5.7 total UV 0-1999 uW/cm^2.
Model 6.2 UVB 0-1999 uW/cm^2.

They were developed for XP folks needing to keep away from low level UV, and reptile owners measuring small UVB lamps in cages.

Having said all that, the instantaneous amount and the dose over time in a salon would be quite small compared to what you get walking around outdoors even on a cloudy day. OSHA probably has some guidelines on a website somewhere indicating amounts they deem hazardous for long term exposure in welding shops, circuit board curing shops, etc if you are interested. Some of our non-tanning distributors (UV Process Control in Chicago and Oriel Instruments in CT) may also have such info... fyi.

Chippp · 04-23-2002, 02:11 PM

Do the walls in your salons tanning rooms go all the way to the ceiling or do you use an open space at the top of the walls to remove heat?

Just do as I said, open your beds turn them all on and then turn the lights out in your salon tonight after dark.

Can you see light from the tanning beds in the common areas of your salon?

_________________

Tanning Booths, for people that want only the very best.
Fast, Comfortable, Dark Tanning and Hygienic.
Don't get booth envy, get a booth.[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-23 14:12 ]

Don Smith · 04-23-2002, 02:53 PM

FYI:

Don't pay ANY attention to the Chipster because he doesn't have a clue!

Here are the facts.

A "light box" that is used to treat SAD (seasonal affective disorder) sufferers is set to "emit" 10,000 LUX (the standard of measurement for visible, i.e., 400 - 700 nm wavelengths). Thus, we know that looking directly into 10,000 LUX light is safe.

We made some measurements this morning with a new "toy" we just got of the irradiance power of "typical" sunlamp (at a distance of 10 cm from the lamp) and we found that it emits 1743 LUX. Thus, the sunlamp (at 10 cm!) emits only 17% of what is emitted by a therapeutic light box.

And, as you get further away rom the "source", the readings drop DRAMATICALLY.

So folks, ignore Chippp on this one because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Don

solarmeter · 04-23-2002, 05:42 PM

That "blue" light you see leaking thru the cracks when you turn the overheads off is the low-lux 410 & 435 nm "spikes" emitted from tanning tubes. You can see graph of this in latest IST Wolff article.

They will not hurt you or make you go blind! They travel farther than UV, which falls off before any consequential amount reaches you.

Now turn your lights back on and forget about it..

04-22-2002, 04:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
Haole Mark Join Date: Mar 18 2002 Posts: 126 Rep Power: 23	Hello Don. Let me start by saying I very much appreciate all the scientific info yo provide here. I will be opening my first salon late this year and have been lurking here for months. My question refers to Chipp's remarks about reflected UV rays. Seems to have some merritt although with canopy closed on beds as well as the absorbing caracteristic of most types of cieling material is this a substantial concern? I don't want to build and find new laws in 10 months telling me to rebuild. Thank you in advance. Aloha,Mark

04-22-2002, 08:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
Don Smith Join Date: Feb 25 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,643 Rep Power: 26	Mark: I can't find it. Tell me where it is and I'll go look at what the "Chipster" had to say. Don

04-22-2002, 10:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
Haole Mark Join Date: Mar 18 2002 Posts: 126 Rep Power: 23	Thank you Don for replying so fast. Searching "ceilings" Chipp on 5/1/01 under the topic of "eye damage to staff"...also saw posts by Chipp at other times regarding this issue...only recently learn how to use the "search" feature so this is how I found the topic again.

04-23-2002, 03:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
Don Smith Join Date: Feb 25 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,643 Rep Power: 26	Mark: You can prove to yourself that this is just another of the Chipster's crazy ideas. Tke a Solartech "MED/hour" hand-held radiometer and measure the "output" of the tanning bed 1 foot, 2 feet, 3, feet, 6 feet etc., away from the bed. You will find out that the "irradiance" decreases VERY quickly. Someone walking down the hall (even if the door was open and the canopy was up - which isn't going to happen) would be exposed to a negligible "dose" of UVR. The same would be true of a staff member working at the front desk. Having said this, ALWAYS wear protective eyewear when you are working on a sunbed. I buy "clear" UVR protective "shields" that are large enough to go over my regular glasses that allow me to see what I am doing. Chippp posts some "good stuff" from time-to-time but not this time! Don

04-23-2002, 12:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
Chippp Join Date: Apr 19 2001 Posts: 2,262 Rep Power: 24	Salon owners salon, after dark, turn on all your tanning machines, leave the tops of the beds open, yes clients will trun the bed on before the tops are closed, now turn off all the regular lights in your salon, you will be suprised how much uv light is spilling over the walls and through lovered doors if your salon has such doors and walls that do not go to the ceilings. If you meter, the meter may show no uv light. But your own eyes can see how much light is bouncing all around the salon off the ceiling tiles from the tanning machines. This light may just cause eye strain, or could cause uv exposure in very small amounts but over very long times, like an 8 hour or longer work shift day after day. Why not insure from the design of the salon to block these uv light exposures? You do not need to use the old method of walls with venting space at the top, you can easily vent the rooms into the ceiling space or into large vents in the ceiling. Why would anyone if they don't need to allow uv light to reflect into common areas of the salon? This is just another area of salon safty that we as salon owners can deal with on our own with out the possible need to be regulated into doing so. Even If it is a "non issue" as don says, then there is still no valid reason to still use the old part wall method when constructing a new salon when you have other design posibilities. It is always better to be safe then sorry. I feel better knowing my eyes and my staffs eyes are not exposed to uv light when working. All so just how sensitive are the cheap uv meters? and how low a dose and for how long would you wantt your eyes exposed to uv at work when they did not need to be? Part of the reason I bring this up is , if you buy a black light the low 40 watt or lower , you know the uva disco hippy light of old, even they come with warnings not to expose to your eyes, and that great concern for eye safty should be used if they are used in a work place were peoples eyes may be exposed to them for long hours. I do know that I do not experance the eye strain and soreness and redness,I once did now that our salon does not use the part wall style of design. _________________ Tanning Booths, for people that want only the very best. Fast, Comfortable, Dark Tanning and Hygienic. Don't get booth envy, get a booth.[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-23 12:27 ]

04-23-2002, 12:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Don Smith Join Date: Feb 25 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,643 Rep Power: 26	Chipster: Are you for real? "Light bouncing off the walls"? Puleeze! Chippp, STOP posting this nonsense! The visible wavelengths of light (400 - 700 nm) ARE NOT going to hurt your eyes in the "intensilty levels" you are talking about. What do you think is emitted by our overhead lights? And what do you think allows us to "see" outdoors? Stop it, Chippp! Don

04-23-2002, 01:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
solarmeter Join Date: Nov 13 2001 Location: MI Posts: 861 Rep Power: 23	If anybody really cares about this, there are two new high sensitivity meters not shown on the website. They measure in micro rather than milli watts, and WILL pick up "scattered/stray" UV light. You don't have to turn off the regular ceiling lights, because the meters reject visible light. Yes they are "cheap" compared to some fancy ones like Spectronics, but they tell the truth better (long story). Model 5.7 total UV 0-1999 uW/cm^2. Model 6.2 UVB 0-1999 uW/cm^2. They were developed for XP folks needing to keep away from low level UV, and reptile owners measuring small UVB lamps in cages. Having said all that, the instantaneous amount and the dose over time in a salon would be quite small compared to what you get walking around outdoors even on a cloudy day. OSHA probably has some guidelines on a website somewhere indicating amounts they deem hazardous for long term exposure in welding shops, circuit board curing shops, etc if you are interested. Some of our non-tanning distributors (UV Process Control in Chicago and Oriel Instruments in CT) may also have such info... fyi.

04-23-2002, 02:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
Chippp Join Date: Apr 19 2001 Posts: 2,262 Rep Power: 24	Do the walls in your salons tanning rooms go all the way to the ceiling or do you use an open space at the top of the walls to remove heat? Just do as I said, open your beds turn them all on and then turn the lights out in your salon tonight after dark. Can you see light from the tanning beds in the common areas of your salon? _________________ Tanning Booths, for people that want only the very best. Fast, Comfortable, Dark Tanning and Hygienic. Don't get booth envy, get a booth.[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-23 14:12 ]

04-23-2002, 02:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Don Smith Join Date: Feb 25 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,643 Rep Power: 26	FYI: Don't pay ANY attention to the Chipster because he doesn't have a clue! Here are the facts. A "light box" that is used to treat SAD (seasonal affective disorder) sufferers is set to "emit" 10,000 LUX (the standard of measurement for visible, i.e., 400 - 700 nm wavelengths). Thus, we know that looking directly into 10,000 LUX light is safe. We made some measurements this morning with a new "toy" we just got of the irradiance power of "typical" sunlamp (at a distance of 10 cm from the lamp) and we found that it emits 1743 LUX. Thus, the sunlamp (at 10 cm!) emits only 17% of what is emitted by a therapeutic light box. And, as you get further away rom the "source", the readings drop DRAMATICALLY. So folks, ignore Chippp on this one because he doesn't know what he is talking about. Don

04-23-2002, 05:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
solarmeter Join Date: Nov 13 2001 Location: MI Posts: 861 Rep Power: 23	That "blue" light you see leaking thru the cracks when you turn the overheads off is the low-lux 410 & 435 nm "spikes" emitted from tanning tubes. You can see graph of this in latest IST Wolff article. They will not hurt you or make you go blind! They travel farther than UV, which falls off before any consequential amount reaches you. Now turn your lights back on and forget about it..

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