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Old 04-17-2002, 10:10 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Njchica;

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

This is an excellent example of not believing everything that you read. Especially information loosely found off of the Internet, or from the shock news segment of the news media. So often people, companies, “news media” and other non-scientifically factual information sources start “rumors” to promote an alternative product or service or increase viewers. Chippp, I did a search on the AP, Medline, and about 5 other scientific search engines, of which I have access and I found no new scientific studies conducted showing links to cosmetics and chlorine. (I also would be interested to see the source of the information, and I think could offer a better explanation of the findings or the study itself.)

I did find one site that made some comments similar to your original post but, I can assure you they comments were made with alternative motivations, ie….Our products do not contain this, so it is better, and safer…. Garbage marketing….

I think if it were truly scientific research they would definitely be more specific or at least not so flash media new driven… These kinds of reports are release on a daily basis, often unsubstantiated. You should know that were are all in the tanning industry and deal with these types of reports all the time.

Chlorine is reactive, that is why it makes such and amazing pool disinfectant…But it one the list of 6 million other things that can kill you, I think it will fall some place after red meat, and just before botox facial injections….

And as you first posted “a lot or most contain organic substances, when exposed to clorine gas from swimming pools reacts with some of the organics in beauty products and produces toxins.”

Organic substances…., other than water, that describes about 95% of all the compounds on earth…

It is these types of stories that frenzy the general public into hysteria.. Same thing happened to dentists about 10 years ago when dateline did a story on dental fillings…. That turned out to be a false Nightmare…. Same thing is happening in our industry, and I can name 15 other industries under the same pressures…

I would not lose any sleep over it worrying.. After all stress causes cancer and heart attacks…..
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Old 04-17-2002, 10:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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njchica, it is clear if you are ever around a pool you can smell clorine and yes the clorine is in the air, and yes you are breathing it in. and yes it can and does cause breathing problems.....and no it is not good for you. So you think that clorine it isn't in the air around a pool?


the sky isn't falling??

I just reported what I saw.

You are right about the news and shock stories. Happeneds all the time. Being in the tanning industry you don't need to tell me!

But it would still be of interest if some companies that made beauty products studied this , common beauty product ingredients and clorine gas , as to if any toxins were formed when these are combined.

I know if company that did looked deeply into health care and the products they sell, would be a product line I would choise.

People now want more them just wrinkle cream , they want to know the products work AND are good for them as well.

It would not be good if some "outside" source discovered this connection between clorine and organics in beauty products......the story said studies did.

Have you done any studies on this or do you feel it is totally impossible for toxins to be produced when organics used in some beauty products are exposed to clorine gas?

Don't bite my head off. I didn't write the story or do the studies!

What made the story of interest to me is..
I no longer use indoor pools for swimming...i had a few bad experances as well as people with me, that had breathing problems for hours after using indoor pools with high amounts of clorine in the air.

It is too bad air quality is not monitored in indoor swimming pools more if at all, it is an air polluant.

questions are a good thing, closing your eyes is a bad thing.

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[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-17 10:43 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-17 10:46 ][ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-17 10:49 ]
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:35 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Ok I just found the story again!

It is in Time Magazine Canadian Edition April 15, 2002 page 54 under the heading BAD NEWS I will put the whole story in here.



The Deep End

Anyone who's been near one knows that indoor swimming pools reek of clorine.
But what you may not know is that when clorine mixes with skin cells and skin-care
products , it can form a variety of volatile compounds. some of which may be harmful to a developing fetus.
Researchers in Britian found that the amount of at least one organic compound, chloroform, is 35 times higher in pools then in tap water. Advice to pregnant women: shower off before taking the plunge.
by Janice M Horowitz.
Source Good News Occupational and Environmental Medicine. Bad News - EPA: Occupational and Enviromental Medicine.


It looks like skin cells, beauty products and clorine in pools combined produce chloroform.


The clorine gas is also in the air around pools, one smell tells you that.


This is not a bad story for the beauty cosmedic industry.....just shower before exposing yourself to clorine in and around pools.
Most people do I would think....in all pools I have used it says to shower before swimming, Good idea, maybe that one reason why.






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[ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-17 11:39 ][ This Message was edited by: Chippp on 2002-04-17 11:44 ]
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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The story has come full circle now, thank you Chippp for finding the article, as I suspected, and I would hope that you will admit, this finding is completely different than what was commented on in your original post.

With regards to your post regarding my experience with Chlorine, I must admit my exposure, at least academically, has been limited… I have been swimming my whole life so I guess physical exposure is high… Undergraduate was in Chemistry and environmental toxicology, graduate was in biochemistry, and if I had not made the decision to drop out of school and sell lotions for a living, my Ph.D. studies were in natural products chemistry… (Oh well a couple hundred thesis pages to go, I finish that one of these free weekends.)

As far as chloroform in pools we all know that chloroform is an unfortunate by product commonly found in standard pool chlorine, not to mention the possible reaction of urea and chlorine under the perfect conditions can react to produce chloroform..

Chippp’s take home message…don’t let your children pee in the pool…..

Eric

[ This Message was edited by: Formulated Solutions on 2002-04-17 12:18 ][ This Message was edited by: Formulated Solutions on 2002-04-17 13:37 ]
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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What it boils down to (no pun intended) is "it can form a variety of volatile compounds. some of which may be harmful to a developing fetus." The post goes from does and can kill you to might, maybe, can be harful to a developing fetus. Thats what pool boys are for. I take care of the family pool and am very careful around the chlorine products. I use only solid or granular products so I can just toss them in the water,and jump in and pickle myself in chloroform..

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Old 04-17-2002, 12:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
On 2002-04-17 10:39, Chippp wrote:
njchica, it is clear if you are ever around a pool you can smell clorine and yes the clorine is in the air, and yes you are breathing it in. and yes it can and does cause breathing problems.....and no it is not good for you. So you think that clorine it isn't in the air around a pool?



Chippp, I have a degree in science. I don't need you to explain chlorine to me. You stated that chlorine gas causes cosmetic products to become toxic and I was just stating that chlorine gas in itself is toxic. If you had chlorine gas all over your backyard, you'd have more to worry about than what kind of lotion you had on your face.

As for organic compounds, that is anything containing carbon. All living matter contains carbon, you eat carbohydrates, methane and butane are in the air.... Why would one fear organic compounds?

Your statement was pretty vague and, as someone who understands science, I didn't buy it. Your second post helps to clarify your point somewhat.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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First off, I don't admit to anything.

and next person,
Well good for you!

and anyone else,
Don't shoot the messenger!

And last,
urine and clorine.......now that would be a toxic mess!
I don't want on my skin!




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Old 04-17-2002, 01:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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thats what the dead pigs and frogs were kept in in high school science class.....see what it did for them ! they looked just the same years later after they died!

BABY OH BABY!

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Old 04-17-2002, 01:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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At the end is the the abstracts of the studies conducted on this issue. TOC refers to total organic content which could possibly come from skin care products but also a multitude of other sources. These studies are very general in nature and were referenced in the Time article. Not just chloroform can result but other trihalomethane compounds which can be harmful. The article recommends to wash off before entering the pool to pregnant woman. In order to reduce TOC, every person entering the pool should wash off. The one study examines the pool as a whole and not the person entering it. Reduction of TOC is the important issue not whether or not you are wearing a moisturizer upon entering a swimming pool.
These studies would not deter me from swimming in an indoor pool.



Distribution and determinants of trihalomethane concentrations in indoor swimming pools
H Chu and M J Nieuwenhuijsen
Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, Department of Environmental Science and Technology, Royal School of Mines, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK


Correspondence to:
Dr M J Nieuwenhuijsen, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, Department of Environmental Science and Technology, Royal School of Mines, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK;
m.nieuwenhuijsen@ic.ac.uk

Objectives: For many decades chlorination has been used as a major disinfectant process for public drinking and swimming pool water in many countries. However, there has been rising concern over the possible link between disinfectant byproducts (DBPs) and adverse reproductive outcomes. The purpose of this study was to estimate the concentrations of trihalomethanes (THMs) in some indoor swimming pools in London and their variation within and between pools and any correlation with other factors.

Methods: Water samples were collected from eight different indoor swimming pools in London. A total of 44 pool samples were collected and analysed for total organic content (TOC) and THMs. Water and air temperature were measured along with the pH during the collection of pool samples. The level of turbulence and the number of people in the pool at the time were also assessed.

Results: The geometric mean concentration for all swimming pools of TOC was 5.8 mg/l, of total THMs (TTHMs) 132.4 µg/l, and for chloroform 113.3 µg/l. There was a clear positive linear correlation between the number of people in the swimming pool and concentrations of TTHMs and chloroform (r=0.7, p
Conclusion: Relatively high concentrations of THMs were found in London's indoor swimming pools. The levels correlated with the number of people in the pool, water temperature, and TOC. The variation in concentrations of THMs was greater within pools than between pools.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Abbreviations: DBPs, disinfectant byproducts; THMs, trihalomethanes; TTHMs, total THMs; TOC, total organic content; CHCl3, chloroform; BDCM (CHCl2Br), bromodichloromethane, CDBM (CHClBr2), chlorodibromomethane; CHBr3, bromoform



Chlorination disinfection byproducts in water and their association with adverse reproductive outcomes: a review
Mark J Nieuwenhuijsena b, Mireille B Toledanoa, Naomi E Eatona, John Fawellc, Paul Elliotta
a Small Area Health Statistics Unit, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK, b TH Huxley School of Environmental, Earth Sciences and Engineering, Imperial College School of Science, Technology and Medicine, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK, c National Centre for Environmental Toxicology, The Water Research Centre, Marlow, Bucks SL7 2HD, UK


Correspondence to: Professor Paul Elliott, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK

Accepted 15 October 1999


OBJECTIVES AND METHODSChlorination has been the major disinfectant process for domestic drinking water for many years. Concern about the potential health effects of the byproducts of chlorination has prompted the investigation of the possible association between exposure to these byproducts and incidence of human cancer, and more recently, with adverse reproductive outcomes. This paper evaluates both the toxicological and epidemiological data involving chlorination disinfection byproducts (DBPs) and adverse reproductive outcomes, and makes recommendations for future research.
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONSRelatively few toxicological and epidemiological studies have been carried out examining the effects of DBPs on reproductive health outcomes. The main outcomes of interest so far have been low birth weight, preterm delivery, spontaneous abortions, stillbirth, and birth defects in particular central nervous system, major cardiac defects, oral cleft, and respiratory, and neural tube defects. Various toxicological and epidemiological studies point towards an association between trihalomethanes (THMs), one of the main DBPs and marker for total DBP load, and (low) birth weight, although the evidence is not conclusive. Administered doses in toxicological studies have been high and even though epidemiological studies have mostly shown excess risks, these were often not significant and the assessment of exposure was often limited. Some studies have shown associations for DBPs and other outcomes such as spontaneous abortions, stillbirth and birth defects, and although the evidence for these associations is weaker it is gaining weight. There is no evidence for an association between THMs and preterm delivery. The main limitation of most studies so far has been the relatively crude methodology, in particular for assessment of exposure.
RECOMMENDATIONSLarge, well designed epidemiological studies focusing on well defined end points taking into account relevant confounders and with particular emphasis on exposure characterisation are ideally needed to confirm or refute these preliminary findings. In practice, these studies may be impracticable, partly due to the cost involved, but this is an issue that can be put rightfor example, by use of subsets of the population in the design of exposure models. The studies should also reflect differences of culture and water treatment in different parts of the world. To identify the specific components that may be of aetiological concern and hence to fit the most appropriate exposure model with which to investigate human exposure to chlorinated DBPs, further detailed toxicological assessments of the mixture of byproducts commonly found in drinking water are also needed.


Chlorination disinfection byproducts in water and their association with adverse reproductive outcomes: a review
Mark J Nieuwenhuijsena b, Mireille B Toledanoa, Naomi E Eatona, John Fawellc, Paul Elliotta
a Small Area Health Statistics Unit, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK, b TH Huxley School of Environmental, Earth Sciences and Engineering, Imperial College School of Science, Technology and Medicine, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK, c National Centre for Environmental Toxicology, The Water Research Centre, Marlow, Bucks SL7 2HD, UK


Correspondence to: Professor Paul Elliott, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK

Accepted 15 October 1999


OBJECTIVES AND METHODSChlorination has been the major disinfectant process for domestic drinking water for many years. Concern about the potential health effects of the byproducts of chlorination has prompted the investigation of the possible association between exposure to these byproducts and incidence of human cancer, and more recently, with adverse reproductive outcomes. This paper evaluates both the toxicological and epidemiological data involving chlorination disinfection byproducts (DBPs) and adverse reproductive outcomes, and makes recommendations for future research.
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONSRelatively few toxicological and epidemiological studies have been carried out examining the effects of DBPs on reproductive health outcomes. The main outcomes of interest so far have been low birth weight, preterm delivery, spontaneous abortions, stillbirth, and birth defects in particular central nervous system, major cardiac defects, oral cleft, and respiratory, and neural tube defects. Various toxicological and epidemiological studies point towards an association between trihalomethanes (THMs), one of the main DBPs and marker for total DBP load, and (low) birth weight, although the evidence is not conclusive. Administered doses in toxicological studies have been high and even though epidemiological studies have mostly shown excess risks, these were often not significant and the assessment of exposure was often limited. Some studies have shown associations for DBPs and other outcomes such as spontaneous abortions, stillbirth and birth defects, and although the evidence for these associations is weaker it is gaining weight. There is no evidence for an association between THMs and preterm delivery. The main limitation of most studies so far has been the relatively crude methodology, in particular for assessment of exposure.
RECOMMENDATIONSLarge, well designed epidemiological studies focusing on well defined end points taking into account relevant confounders and with particular emphasis on exposure characterisation are ideally needed to confirm or refute these preliminary findings. In practice, these studies may be impracticable, partly due to the cost involved, but this is an issue that can be put rightfor example, by use of subsets of the population in the design of exposure models. The studies should also reflect differences of culture and water treatment in different parts of the world. To identify the specific components that may be of aetiological concern and hence to fit the most appropriate exposure model with which to investigate human exposure to chlorinated DBPs, further detailed toxicological assessments of the mixture of byproducts commonly found in drinking water are also needed.


Chlorination disinfection byproducts in water and their association with adverse reproductive outcomes: a review
Mark J Nieuwenhuijsena b, Mireille B Toledanoa, Naomi E Eatona, John Fawellc, Paul Elliotta
a Small Area Health Statistics Unit, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK, b TH Huxley School of Environmental, Earth Sciences and Engineering, Imperial College School of Science, Technology and Medicine, Prince Consort Road, London SW7 2BP, UK, c National Centre for Environmental Toxicology, The Water Research Centre, Marlow, Bucks SL7 2HD, UK


Correspondence to: Professor Paul Elliott, Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College School of Medicine at St Mary's, London W2 1PG, UK

Accepted 15 October 1999


OBJECTIVES AND METHODSChlorination has been the major disinfectant process for domestic drinking water for many years. Concern about the potential health effects of the byproducts of chlorination has prompted the investigation of the possible association between exposure to these byproducts and incidence of human cancer, and more recently, with adverse reproductive outcomes. This paper evaluates both the toxicological and epidemiological data involving chlorination disinfection byproducts (DBPs) and adverse reproductive outcomes, and makes recommendations for future research.
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONSRelatively few toxicological and epidemiological studies have been carried out examining the effects of DBPs on reproductive health outcomes. The main outcomes of interest so far have been low birth weight, preterm delivery, spontaneous abortions, stillbirth, and birth defects in particular central nervous system, major cardiac defects, oral cleft, and respiratory, and neural tube defects. Various toxicological and epidemiological studies point towards an association between trihalomethanes (THMs), one of the main DBPs and marker for total DBP load, and (low) birth weight, although the evidence is not conclusive. Administered doses in toxicological studies have been high and even though epidemiological studies have mostly shown excess risks, these were often not significant and the assessment of exposure was often limited. Some studies have shown associations for DBPs and other outcomes such as spontaneous abortions, stillbirth and birth defects, and although the evidence for these associations is weaker it is gaining weight. There is no evidence for an association between THMs and preterm delivery. The main limitation of most studies so far has been the relatively crude methodology, in particular for assessment of exposure.
RECOMMENDATIONSLarge, well designed epidemiological studies focusing on well defined end points taking into account relevant confounders and with particular emphasis on exposure characterisation are ideally needed to confirm or refute these preliminary findings. In practice, these studies may be impracticable, partly due to the cost involved, but this is an issue that can be put rightfor example, by use of subsets of the population in the design of exposure models. The studies should also reflect differences of culture and water treatment in different parts of the world. To identify the specific components that may be of aetiological concern and hence to fit the most appropriate exposure model with which to investigate human exposure to chlorinated DBPs, further detailed toxicological assessments of the mixture of byproducts commonly found in drinking water are also needed.


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Old 04-17-2002, 01:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Thanks!
Your post is very interesting.


Like I said most pools ask you to shower before you enter.

Common sense not to mix more chemicals in to the pool chemicals.

They must be into pool studies over there, they did the pee dye studies over there to.

They added a chemical to the pools,
If you peed in the water it would change color, the kids loved it, they would see who could make the best and biggest patterns.

SCIENCE can be fun!












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