number 2000 - tanTALK

electricparadise · 10-25-2005, 11:29 PM

Somebody must care out there about what has happened to this country. Doesn't anybody see what SH%$ these people have done to us . And because they say they are CHRISTIANS you all fell for it .wELL THEY AREN'T .... AND 2000 OF OUR PEOPLE AND A HUNDRED THOUSAND OF IRAQIES HAVE DIED.......... And just because you didn't want gays and lesbians to marry. or women to have control over their own bodies. Hope he starts drinking ,so you can see the real person you voted into office.

mr belvedere · 10-26-2005, 01:46 AM

Couldn't leave your thread hanging bro. I for one appreciate your passion and anguish over this entire mess. The sad fact is (at least in my case), many of us don;t even know there is a war going on somewhere that we are involved with. I forget, caught up in my life, until something like this hits the news or you bring it up here. Whatever your opinion on our presence in Iraq, whatever your opinion of the current administration and their justifications for our presence in Iraq; the fact is, we must keep this in the forefront of every American's mind inorder to bring about the resolution of the issues and hastty return of our fighting men and women in that theater. It has become very obvious to me, that the powers that be learned nothing from our great sacrifice and loss in Vietnam, and feel content to watch happen again in the deserts of the middle east. I care. I'm upset. But I forget. But, this shouldn't be about politics et al; it should be about doing the right thing, every time we get the chance. And I for one say that we have done the "right thing" in Iraq, and now it's up to them. Good luck my friend. -Belvie

electricparadise · 10-26-2005, 08:01 AM

I "cut and pasted this " (not very well ) didn't get the authors and I apologize for that, it came from alternet I think. It is written better than my post.....and thanks king Belve ,Peace...........:This week in Iraq, we reached a heart-breaking milestone: the 2,000th American soldier died in combat, fighting what we now know was always a war of choice and ideological preference.

For those who opposed the invasion, it's a moment to mourn our impotence: millions of us around the world did our best to stop this bloody disaster before it started, but we failed.

The real human cost, of course, is far greater than 2,000. It includes the 198 members of the "coalition of the willing" who have died, almost 300 private contractors, 73 journalists, the 15,220 Americans who have been wounded, and the invisible dead from what the Guardian's Julian Borger called the "extraordinarily high number of accidents, suicides and other non-combat deaths in the ranks that have gone largely unreported in the media."

And then there's the sad fact that those deceased Americans and allies are a fraction of the number of Iraqi dead.

Extrapolating from a study of post-traumatic stress disorder published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 41,000 U.S. marines and army troops reported that they believed they had killed at least one Iraqi civilian in the 15 months following the 2003 invasion.

Estimates of Iraqi troops killed during the invasion range from 5,000 to as many as 45,000 projected by the Guardian. General Tommy Franks guessed it was 30,000.

While we're supposed to consider these "bad guys" and ignore their deaths, the majority were young men trying to escape poverty in a country with an unemployment rate as high as 70 percent during the sanctions regime.

The real human toll includes, too, the estimated 3,450 Iraqi police and security forces who have been killed in what is already a low-grade civil war. And according to Iraq Body Count, a website that gathers media accounts of civilian deaths, between 26,000 and 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died from coalition actions through Monday.

But even those totals are dwarfed by the number of dead -- by some estimates over a million -- caused by the U.N sanctions that started with Bush I, and continued under President Bill Clinton, whose Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, once described the effects of the sanctions on Iraq's children as "worth it."

And even when we include all of those lives lost, we still don't begin to scratch the surface of the real human costs of this war -- the permanent emotional scars that war inevitably leaves on all of its participants, victims and victors alike.

Public support for this war has been sustained by a willful ignorance of the damage being done. On some level, Americans need a sanitized view of conflicts like Iraq to keep their dream of America's righteousness alive. Sure, the newspapers, the White House and the Pentagon have refined their techniques of repressing the numbers of the dead in Iraq, but the truth is there's a public appetite for the version of events they offer.

It is the perception that we are prosecuting a war that is less than righteous -- far more than recurring images of flag-draped coffins -- that will sap public support. The dead U.S. soldiers, dead children, dead Iraqi civilians are all the result of the same thing: 14 years of remorseless and cynical policy conducted by an unaccountable government and abetted by a citizenry that will stay loyal so long as the real human cost remains hidden.

Kay · 10-26-2005, 05:04 PM

don't forget these #'s
http://vikingphoenix.com/news/stn/2003/911casualties.htm
http://vikingphoenix.com/photos/911-2003/911-2003-1.html

electricparadise · 10-27-2005, 03:26 PM

Oh by golly , I didn't make the connection!!!!!! wow ! You mean, ...no ...Say it isn't so......The Iraqies did this???? I thought for sure biladen was a Saudie. I mean his family was from Saudi Arabia so I just figured .he was from there too .****!
Help me out here Kay are you saying the people who attack us were from Iraq. Cause usually thats what you do ,you attack the country that the bad guys are from. can you enlighten me on why you posted that .Tell you what I'l go google this and if you would, please bring other facts into this.

numbersgame · 10-28-2005, 04:57 PM

Wow some people will never get it, it has nothing to do with a woman having control over her body first of all remember it took 2 to make that baby. Second it is believed that life begins a conception, if you believe that a baby inside a woman that has a heart beat and legs and arms and all of those other great features is a person then abortion is murder, but if you believe that it's not a person well thats your decision.

I WILL PUT THIS IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON ELECTRIC HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE OK WITH KILLING A BABY, BUT AGAINST A WAR THAT PROVIDES SO MANY PEOPLE WITH SO MUCH FREEDOM??? JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ARE YOU SAYING KILLING BABIES IS OK BUT LEAVE ADULTS ALONG???

OK NEXT NO COUNTRY ATTACKED US ON 9-11 TERRORIST DID AND SAUDI ARABIA KICKED BIN LADEN OUT YEARS AGO AND STRIPED HIM OF HIS CITIZENSHIP DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

LAST ON SEPT 11TH EVERYONE SAID WHY DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, AND NOW THAT PRESIDENT BUSH IS DOING SOMETHING WITH THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS BY THE WAY PEOPLE WON'T TO CRITIZE HIM. HE HAS TAKEN THE WAR TO THEM, HOW MANY TERRORIST ATTACKS HAVE WE HAD IN AMERICA SINCE 9-11. THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.

BP · 10-28-2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:
On 2005-10-28 16:57:00, numbersgame wrote:
Wow some people will never get it, it has nothing to do with a woman having control over her body first of all remember it took 2 to make that baby. Second it is believed that life begins a conception, if you believe that a baby inside a woman that has a heart beat and legs and arms and all of those other great features is a person then abortion is murder, but if you believe that it's not a person well thats your decision.

I WILL PUT THIS IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON ELECTRIC HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE OK WITH KILLING A BABY, BUT AGAINST A WAR THAT PROVIDES SO MANY PEOPLE WITH SO MUCH FREEDOM??? JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ARE YOU SAYING KILLING BABIES IS OK BUT LEAVE ADULTS ALONG???

OK NEXT NO COUNTRY ATTACKED US ON 9-11 TERRORIST DID AND SAUDI ARABIA KICKED BIN LADEN OUT YEARS AGO AND STRIPED HIM OF HIS CITIZENSHIP DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

LAST ON SEPT 11TH EVERYONE SAID WHY DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, AND NOW THAT PRESIDENT BUSH IS DOING SOMETHING WITH THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS BY THE WAY PEOPLE WON'T TO CRITIZE HIM. HE HAS TAKEN THE WAR TO THEM, HOW MANY TERRORIST ATTACKS HAVE WE HAD IN AMERICA SINCE 9-11. THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.

Ditto

caribbean tan man · 10-28-2005, 05:26 PM

ALL I WANNA KNOW IS BUSH GETTING THE OIL OR NOT? and to me it seems ridiculous to be in a war with a country just to better the same country that dosent want the help! i mean leave it up to the good ole USA to go help countries that hate us and send in our troops who need to buy ther own body armour while the government spends money fixing other countries.

BP · 10-28-2005, 05:34 PM

Has there ever been a perfect war? Any war ever go without unexpected twists? I wonder what threads would be on the internet for Veitnam, WWII,I,Civil War etc... I bet it would be alot of simialr issues debated from every campaign ever fought. Is one side of this issue right and the other wrong?

caribbean tan man · 10-28-2005, 05:42 PM

i just think it sucks plain and simple. seems to be a big waste of time and money. i mean people here can bearly afford gas and here we are dumping million dollar bombs on a country we will spend billions on fixing after the war!

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10-25-2005, 11:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
electricparadise Waiting Confirmation Join Date: Dec 4 2002 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 0	Somebody must care out there about what has happened to this country. Doesn't anybody see what SH%$ these people have done to us . And because they say they are CHRISTIANS you all fell for it .wELL THEY AREN'T .... AND 2000 OF OUR PEOPLE AND A HUNDRED THOUSAND OF IRAQIES HAVE DIED.......... And just because you didn't want gays and lesbians to marry. or women to have control over their own bodies. Hope he starts drinking ,so you can see the real person you voted into office.

10-26-2005, 01:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
mr belvedere Mr. b Join Date: May 10 2005 Age: 54 Posts: 7,247 Rep Power: 68	Couldn't leave your thread hanging bro. I for one appreciate your passion and anguish over this entire mess. The sad fact is (at least in my case), many of us don;t even know there is a war going on somewhere that we are involved with. I forget, caught up in my life, until something like this hits the news or you bring it up here. Whatever your opinion on our presence in Iraq, whatever your opinion of the current administration and their justifications for our presence in Iraq; the fact is, we must keep this in the forefront of every American's mind inorder to bring about the resolution of the issues and hastty return of our fighting men and women in that theater. It has become very obvious to me, that the powers that be learned nothing from our great sacrifice and loss in Vietnam, and feel content to watch happen again in the deserts of the middle east. I care. I'm upset. But I forget. But, this shouldn't be about politics et al; it should be about doing the right thing, every time we get the chance. And I for one say that we have done the "right thing" in Iraq, and now it's up to them. Good luck my friend. -Belvie

10-26-2005, 08:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
electricparadise Waiting Confirmation Join Date: Dec 4 2002 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 0	I "cut and pasted this " (not very well ) didn't get the authors and I apologize for that, it came from alternet I think. It is written better than my post.....and thanks king Belve ,Peace...........:This week in Iraq, we reached a heart-breaking milestone: the 2,000th American soldier died in combat, fighting what we now know was always a war of choice and ideological preference. For those who opposed the invasion, it's a moment to mourn our impotence: millions of us around the world did our best to stop this bloody disaster before it started, but we failed. The real human cost, of course, is far greater than 2,000. It includes the 198 members of the "coalition of the willing" who have died, almost 300 private contractors, 73 journalists, the 15,220 Americans who have been wounded, and the invisible dead from what the Guardian's Julian Borger called the "extraordinarily high number of accidents, suicides and other non-combat deaths in the ranks that have gone largely unreported in the media." And then there's the sad fact that those deceased Americans and allies are a fraction of the number of Iraqi dead. Extrapolating from a study of post-traumatic stress disorder published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 41,000 U.S. marines and army troops reported that they believed they had killed at least one Iraqi civilian in the 15 months following the 2003 invasion. Estimates of Iraqi troops killed during the invasion range from 5,000 to as many as 45,000 projected by the Guardian. General Tommy Franks guessed it was 30,000. While we're supposed to consider these "bad guys" and ignore their deaths, the majority were young men trying to escape poverty in a country with an unemployment rate as high as 70 percent during the sanctions regime. The real human toll includes, too, the estimated 3,450 Iraqi police and security forces who have been killed in what is already a low-grade civil war. And according to Iraq Body Count, a website that gathers media accounts of civilian deaths, between 26,000 and 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died from coalition actions through Monday. But even those totals are dwarfed by the number of dead -- by some estimates over a million -- caused by the U.N sanctions that started with Bush I, and continued under President Bill Clinton, whose Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, once described the effects of the sanctions on Iraq's children as "worth it." And even when we include all of those lives lost, we still don't begin to scratch the surface of the real human costs of this war -- the permanent emotional scars that war inevitably leaves on all of its participants, victims and victors alike. Public support for this war has been sustained by a willful ignorance of the damage being done. On some level, Americans need a sanitized view of conflicts like Iraq to keep their dream of America's righteousness alive. Sure, the newspapers, the White House and the Pentagon have refined their techniques of repressing the numbers of the dead in Iraq, but the truth is there's a public appetite for the version of events they offer. It is the perception that we are prosecuting a war that is less than righteous -- far more than recurring images of flag-draped coffins -- that will sap public support. The dead U.S. soldiers, dead children, dead Iraqi civilians are all the result of the same thing: 14 years of remorseless and cynical policy conducted by an unaccountable government and abetted by a citizenry that will stay loyal so long as the real human cost remains hidden.

10-26-2005, 05:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
Kay I love Derf!! Join Date: Jul 16 2004 Location: NH Posts: 474 Rep Power: 21	don't forget these #'s http://vikingphoenix.com/news/stn/2003/911casualties.htm http://vikingphoenix.com/photos/911-2003/911-2003-1.html

10-27-2005, 03:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
electricparadise Waiting Confirmation Join Date: Dec 4 2002 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 0	Oh by golly , I didn't make the connection!!!!!! wow ! You mean, ...no ...Say it isn't so......The Iraqies did this???? I thought for sure biladen was a Saudie. I mean his family was from Saudi Arabia so I just figured .he was from there too .****! Help me out here Kay are you saying the people who attack us were from Iraq. Cause usually thats what you do ,you attack the country that the bad guys are from. can you enlighten me on why you posted that .Tell you what I'l go google this and if you would, please bring other facts into this.

10-28-2005, 04:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
numbersgame Join Date: Sep 2 2005 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Wow some people will never get it, it has nothing to do with a woman having control over her body first of all remember it took 2 to make that baby. Second it is believed that life begins a conception, if you believe that a baby inside a woman that has a heart beat and legs and arms and all of those other great features is a person then abortion is murder, but if you believe that it's not a person well thats your decision. I WILL PUT THIS IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON ELECTRIC HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE OK WITH KILLING A BABY, BUT AGAINST A WAR THAT PROVIDES SO MANY PEOPLE WITH SO MUCH FREEDOM??? JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ARE YOU SAYING KILLING BABIES IS OK BUT LEAVE ADULTS ALONG??? OK NEXT NO COUNTRY ATTACKED US ON 9-11 TERRORIST DID AND SAUDI ARABIA KICKED BIN LADEN OUT YEARS AGO AND STRIPED HIM OF HIS CITIZENSHIP DO YOUR HOMEWORK. LAST ON SEPT 11TH EVERYONE SAID WHY DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, AND NOW THAT PRESIDENT BUSH IS DOING SOMETHING WITH THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS BY THE WAY PEOPLE WON'T TO CRITIZE HIM. HE HAS TAKEN THE WAR TO THEM, HOW MANY TERRORIST ATTACKS HAVE WE HAD IN AMERICA SINCE 9-11. THATS WHAT I THOUGHT.

10-28-2005, 05:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
BP I love Derf!! Join Date: Apr 13 2004 Location: West Coast Age: 57 Posts: 436 Rep Power: 22	Quote: On 2005-10-28 16:57:00, numbersgame wrote: Wow some people will never get it, it has nothing to do with a woman having control over her body first of all remember it took 2 to make that baby. Second it is believed that life begins a conception, if you believe that a baby inside a woman that has a heart beat and legs and arms and all of those other great features is a person then abortion is murder, but if you believe that it's not a person well thats your decision. I WILL PUT THIS IN ALL CAPS FOR A REASON ELECTRIC HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE OK WITH KILLING A BABY, BUT AGAINST A WAR THAT PROVIDES SO MANY PEOPLE WITH SO MUCH FREEDOM??? JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ARE YOU SAYING KILLING BABIES IS OK BUT LEAVE ADULTS ALONG??? OK NEXT NO COUNTRY ATTACKED US ON 9-11 TERRORIST DID AND SAUDI ARABIA KICKED BIN LADEN OUT YEARS AGO AND STRIPED HIM OF HIS CITIZENSHIP DO YOUR HOMEWORK. LAST ON SEPT 11TH EVERYONE SAID WHY DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING BEFORE THIS HAPPENED, AND NOW THAT PRESIDENT BUSH IS DOING SOMETHING WITH THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS BY THE WAY PEOPLE WON'T TO CRITIZE HIM. HE HAS TAKEN THE WAR TO THEM, HOW MANY TERRORIST ATTACKS HAVE WE HAD IN AMERICA SINCE 9-11. THATS WHAT I THOUGHT. Ditto

10-28-2005, 05:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
caribbean tan man DERFTALK FBI AGENT Join Date: Jul 29 2003 Location: northeast Age: 48 Posts: 3,632 Rep Power: 46	ALL I WANNA KNOW IS BUSH GETTING THE OIL OR NOT? and to me it seems ridiculous to be in a war with a country just to better the same country that dosent want the help! i mean leave it up to the good ole USA to go help countries that hate us and send in our troops who need to buy ther own body armour while the government spends money fixing other countries.

10-28-2005, 05:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
BP I love Derf!! Join Date: Apr 13 2004 Location: West Coast Age: 57 Posts: 436 Rep Power: 22	Has there ever been a perfect war? Any war ever go without unexpected twists? I wonder what threads would be on the internet for Veitnam, WWII,I,Civil War etc... I bet it would be alot of simialr issues debated from every campaign ever fought. Is one side of this issue right and the other wrong?

10-28-2005, 05:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
caribbean tan man DERFTALK FBI AGENT Join Date: Jul 29 2003 Location: northeast Age: 48 Posts: 3,632 Rep Power: 46	i just think it sucks plain and simple. seems to be a big waste of time and money. i mean people here can bearly afford gas and here we are dumping million dollar bombs on a country we will spend billions on fixing after the war!

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