pcomo

I hope this thread isn't destined for deletion but, pursuant to my other thread, I want to ask a question of those who consider themselves "Democrats" and feel strongly that religion is a bad thing and Republicans are evil. My question is basically this: If you really feel religion is a terrible thing, and responsible for so much suppression, how do (or did) you justify supporting a Catholic as a presidential candidate?

While I don't personally believe in "God", I personally feel that there are many benefits to people with religious or spiritual beliefs versus those who believe we are only animals. But I'm not trying to explain what I feel. I'm trying to understand what the thought-process is that takes place in the mind of a person who supports vehmently something he at the same time hates passionately. For certainly, if one is going to look at the worst aspects of any religion in history, one could easily focus on the Catholic Church and the sore point of its history. Again, I'm not anti-catholic by any stretch. But I know a person who is anti-religious is not going to overlook Catholicism.

I know, with some who may vote for the Democratic party but aren't really Democrats (e.g., Swedaguy, who is very intelligent), it is a matter of the lesser of two evils. But I would never put the lesser of two evils on my bumper sticker or cheer fervently for that person. So, what is it that allows one to overlook major discrepancies and say with certainty "THAT'S MY GUY!!!". I've voted in a lot of elections and I've sometimes felt pretty firm about certain propositions and what not, but never about a politician. I'm sorry if this is unclear. I'm tired and probably blabbing too much, but it just hit me, and has left me puzzling, how an die-hard anti-religious, "amoeba to monkey is the only answer" person can turn around and strongly support a devout Catholic. Please keep it civil. If the owners of this site want to cut this thread, that's their perogative. Just like I don't have to let employees play rap music in my salon (and don't), they don't have to let politics and religion be discussed on their site.

SwedaGuy

That's funny...I don't let them play rap music, either...

But I've got something I want to contribute on this, but I'm rushing out the door right now. I'll get back as soon as I get the chance!

engfant

I was brought up on 3 Stooges, NWA Wrestling, Monster Truck, Creature Double Feature, I love Lucy, Warner Bros cartoons. I AM an ITALIAN Catholic (non acting) went to catholic schools and left cause I liked to ask "why" and they couldn't give me a straight answer. In College, I took a lit class that required us to read the ENTIRE bible and be tested on 40 of the books (some of the books are kinda filler but I'm SURE you all knew that).

MY PROBLEM IS, WHITE REDNECK REPUBLICANS HIJACKED THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. They are NOT christians, they are BORN AGAIN meaning they are F'N NUTS.

I grew up in it. They bought into it to avoid whatever scrutiny they were involved in.

And now I'm being told how to live my life? Now I'm a sinner?

I don't think so. I know the truth. They make it up as they go. THE REASON THE BLUE STATES are SO peeED at this is because IT ALL STARTED IN MASSACHUSETTS. We are the melting pot of ALL RELIGION. The CATHOLIC FAITH BELONGS TO THE ITALIANS NOT REDNECKS. Italians DO NOT BUY INTO THE REDNECK VERSION OF THEIR FAITH. You are living the life of the BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN. AS IN, BORN AGAIN TO BE MORE LIKE ME.

The North East is responsible for almost everything GOOD about this country and get ZERO RESPECT.
Just look at the NE Patriots. They STILL are NOT considered the best football team JUST CAUSE they are from MASS.

SwedaGuy

Hmmm...this is a very volatile question, and I think everyone would have their own distinctly different answer.

I guess the reason I could vote for Kerry, even though he's an acknowledged devout catholic, is that he didn't flaunt his religious nature. I believe he feels, as I do, that religion is a deeply personal and private matter. Additionally, he caused great consternation in his own church by backing abortion rights. That in itself tells me that he is interested in thinking independently, and although he respects the religion he was born into, he's not blindly bound to its every tenet...

On the other hand, any politician that invokes god at every opportunity will earn my distaste. My experience has been that the truly devout among us do not find it necessary to point that out. The pious and fraudulant are forever extolling their "good, christian values"...and those that cite god as their "support", "guidance", or "compass" are particularly dangerous...

I guess, to be as simplistic as possible, Kerry wasn't as scary as Bush...


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"Though the mills of the gods grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small..."[ This Message was edited by: SwedaGuy on 2005-02-15 10:41 ]

pcomo

Thanks guys. I appreciate your answers. Typing fast because we're a little bit busy today.

Engfant, it's really fascinating reading what you write sometimes and a lot of this must have to do with where you live. I'm a California native and I guess I've gotten the idea that no matter what medium-sized (or bigger) city you go to in this country, it's all about the same. But I'm starting to learn differently. I didn't know anybody felt this way about the Patriots. Where did you hear that? I'd say they are one of the best teams ever. I'm a super-die-hard 49ers fan and I can't quite bring myself to say say they are better than even the Niners were at their peak, but one more Super Bowl and I'll have to concede. In the meantime, they are clearly far and away the greatest team of the salary cap/free agency era without the slightest doubt. And Brady is one Super Bowl away from Montana status in my mind. But I just can't imagine what bearing his playing for Boston has. He's a kid from San Francisco anyway. The whole NFL is completely disrelated to any particular city. Sad but true. I have no idea, but I'd guess there wasn't even a single person on that team from Mass. But I can't mix politics with football (except for the Raiders fans -- they're a bunch of welfare-abusing, car-stealing thugs).

But back to politics and religion. I'm half-Italian and so have some familial ties to the Catholic church, but obviously not as much as you. What's so strange is that the way you envision this prototypical Bush voter is much the way I've always envisioned the prototypical Democrat voter. Un-educated, sitting in a trailer, watching wrestling and waiting for the welfare check, living off of my hard-earned tax dollars. I know there are the "hot tub" liberals that live in the wealthy areas, but they account for such a small percentage of the electorate, I have to dismiss them in my mind. Actually, I had a great uncle who was the most die-hard Democrat I've ever met. In fact, he was so hate-filled that at family and social gatherings he'd spout out the most horrible things ever, like how he hoped Reagan would live to be 120, so he could suffer his Alzheimers longer. It was embarassing, even in a blue state.

What's weird is he was also a devout evangelical Protestant (originally from the Midwest, then living in the Bay Area). He seemed to always feel like he was getting screwed over by his employers (even though he worked a lifetime as a union engineer and made a small fortune). He died about 2.5 years ago of a heart attack. The guy was so stressed out and worked up about Republicans all the time that I think it finally took its toll. Incidentally, he was also one of the biggest racists I've ever met.

So I guess then, in my mind, I would never say "yeah, Democrats rule and Republicans are a bunch of stupid ***holes". Nor could I turn it around and say the reverse. I think there is a fair amount of scum and a huge amount of hypocrisy on both sides. I think Democrats are more racist, albeit covertly, in their pushing of entitlement and victimhood with minorities. To me, they are the ultimate in hypocrites on race issues -- only emphasized in attacks by black Democrats on black Republicans (e.g., "Condi Rice Colin Powell aren't really even black" -- huh?? WTF are you talking about???). I think Republicans are too worried about moral issues and waste time with things like abortion. And I think both are dead wrong on issues of drugs (despte the fact that I don't take drugs and I don't personally think it is good for anybody else to -- but it's their choice).

But I have another question: If the country IS based on free speech and freedom of religion and if all people ARE allowed to believe whatever it is they want to believe, why is it so horrible that this group which has views very different from you has greater voting power? Isn't that part of the deal?

Engfant, don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you are not a donkey Democrat at all. I think you'd better look into the Libertarians. But either way, you've got to be more specific. "Everything good came from the Northeast"? "No respect"? What would constitute "respect"? I respect the Northeast. I think New York, Boston and San Francisco are the three greatesst cities in the country. But what are you looking for? Not to get Doctor Phil on you (I can't stand that guy) but you've got to find a way to find some sort of inner peace and lose a little hate. In the end, you have to look in the mirror and see what YOU are doing to make the world a better place, not just how some redneck in a red state. If you are just worried about "getting yours" then you too are part of the problem. Gotta go!

sizzlestan

The Pats are the best team in the NFL. They have been for years. And all of this is coming from a Republican Ravens fan. I am also NOT a redneck. I am also not a born again nor do I believe religion should play that big a role in politics. Thats my personal opinion.

engfant

"The Pats are the best team in the NFL."

Finally some truth.

sizzlestan

I think the Ravens played them well this year (at least the first half). The Pats play as a team, not as a bunch of stars put together. And the coach is incredible.

Ezliving_Jim

Dilbert Rules!