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-   -   Somebody outta be SPANKED (http://tantalk.com/general-tanning-industry-discussions/2348511-somebody-outta-spanked.html)

Sheila in Minnesota 06-22-2005 06:57 PM

I'd love to know which EINSTEIN moved a thread that was in a private forum and moved it to the cesspool of the Spam Attack forum.....

Hmmmmmmmmm?

A show of hands? Anyone ???


Terri Fransen has been INVOLVED in this industry when most of you were still TANNERS at the local suds and bulbs shack... and some eeeeegits want to take a DUMP on her offer and suggestions?

Ramcat and pals... those too afraid (and too ignorant) to understand that by USING THE LAWS as they are WRITTEN to not only STOP the gag order on our industry to advertise and promote the HEALTH BENEFITS OF TANNING AND OUTDOOR SUNLIGHT - - - but to ALSO PLACE A GAG ORDER ON THE FDA,FTC, AAD AND THE AMA TO PREVENT THEM FROM FURTHER DAMAGING THE SALON OWNERS IN THIS INDUSTRY AND CREATING AND PROMOTING MISLEADING STATEMENTS THAT LEAD TO THE ILL HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC WORLD WIDE

You want to cry into your beers EVERY SEASON....

You want the ITA or Smart Tan or anybody but yourselves to do the work, bear the financial burden, to work the MIRACLE!!!!!

Hang your heads in the shame that was created here today kiddies ~ ~

NOT those that offered willingly to LISTEN and perhaps SUPPORT this effort.... but those that popped a virtual squat on the integrity of Terri Fransen....

May your seed shrivel in your sacks before you present us with MORE of your offspring to pay welfare for!.

Sheila in Minnesota 06-22-2005 07:04 PM

Ohhhhhhh ~ ~ have a new place for showing your stellar intellects?

I have never witnessed such a display of aged ***** as I am seeing here tonite...... what a bunch of candy assed losers!!!

Well ~ here is the TEXT of what someone here at TanTalk decided was unfit for the industy's salon owner force

TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 3:43p
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It is TIME! Time that we came together as an industr, as a collective group with a priority to cleaning up the act in the destructive and sometimes even DEADLY behavior of the medical industry!!

You've read what the derms are up to and how they use this type of destruction to their benefit: http://www.tantalk.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2347937&forum=33&11

Now, leading in a positive direction to, not only placing a "GAG ORDER" on their efforts against the tanning industry. But getting your customers in on the actions we take! They'll love the outcome of a potential monetary settlement within the action, as well as their own protection of rights within our endeavors!

There are several attorneys within this industry! I know, because I've had the priviledge in helping them! If none are reading this forum - I'll forward my plan!

#1 - Class Action Suit against AMA and any and all medical practices within the ADA. Their own websites, offices and damaging media presentations should make it very simple to obtain the GAG ORDER. Specific references within the Court of Appeals Laws pertaining to Chiropractic.

This Class Action Suit should name every owner of tanning salons throughout the country and their customer base. Easily including a million plaintiffs before the first hearing.

#2 Class Action Law Suit against the AMA and entire profession of medical industry throughout the country - named therein and all medical doctors, hospitals, clinics, as well as any professional with degrees - practicing throughout the country who overcharge patients, who refuse medical treatment to the uninsured, charging unacceptable fees which effect our personal credits, those have patients inadvertantly signed the PRIVACY ACT - with a belief that it was outlined to protect our interests! (Pick up a copy of this ACT from any doctors office and read it carefully!)

This Class Action should nicely eliminate the problems than ALL American's are facing in high insurance fees and lack thereof! We should receive medical treatments at no cost, considering the taxes Americans pay that substantially reduce our income to less than 33%! Other regions of the world DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM!

If we, collectively fight for our rights and include the population - I predict that we'll beat them within 2 years!

What do you think? Any players? I'm an UNBIASED OPINION, could even be considered an EXPERT WITNESS! As you know, I've fought for the rights in lending for salons for 11 years! BUT I DON'T HAVE A SALON!

_________________
Terri Franssen

[ This Message was edited by: TFranssen on 2005-06-12 15:44 ]


mr belvedere
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 4:28p
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I hate to say it, but I believe a law suit would be huge waste of our money and effort. What we need is a powerful national media response effort to dispel the BS and expose some of the outright lies and misinformation they are putting out to the public. If UV causes cancer, why are there still people alive in the mideast? No clothes, no sun screen, no Cal Tan Insurance? It's because UV doesn't cause cancer! There is more clinical evidence today that skin cancer and other deadly are genetic, and not the result of environment. I'm not saying that overexposure to UV (radiation) isn't bad and is not responsible for some cases of skin cancer, but for these people to go on TV and tell the world that the sun kills is irresponsible and greed driven. Yes, I agree that a collective effort by all of us can change the landscape of our industry, but I don't think we have the resources to effectively win the type of fight Terri is suggesting. BTW, I like your spunk, T! Good luck.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 7:30p
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Most good attorney's will go on a class action battle, based on contingency, with enough people on the front end. And with enough people on the front end - we can begin launching the media hype to battle effectively - under the advice of our legal representative and a good publicist.

The numbers will make you stronger monetarily, therefore, the cost involved with the initial filing should be nominal to individual owners. Likewise, the publicist should receive a substantial amounT - and $1 a month from 20,000 salon owners should generate a positive outcome!

You can not win if you are not in! Correct?




mr belvedere
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 7:35p
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Ok. So what are the grounds for our suit, and what damages will we seek?


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/12/05 7:35p
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I am in...and will help ! I am drinking your Kool-aid!


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 11:21p
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First Ground to base our suit:

AMA, ADA and certain medical professionals, have breeched the Sherman Antitrust Act http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0844878.htmlin taking active steps, often covert, to undermine the tanning industry and educational institutes thereof. They have concealed evidence of the usefulness of UVA and UVB, used within the indoor tanning industry. They have misused insurance programs by charging higher fees for subsequent service, subverting government inquiries into the efficancy of tanning, engaged in a massive disinformation campaign to discredit and destabilize the tanning profession and continue to engage in numerous other activities to maintain a medical physician monopoly over healthcare in this country.

As in Wilk vs. AMA and Dr. Sammons, evidence should demonstrate that the ADA and AMA’s scientific studies are proving that UV technology provides many positive effects to skin disorders and other diseases that benefit from its usefulness. As research should provide substantial information to indicate the destruction of an industry for their own selfish acts, as UV has many positive effective uses.

These exact same boards are using their power to publicize a national boycott to the tanning industry – and TANNING SALON OWNERS are better trained in the use of these devices. As Physicians are using a “trial and error” that is insufficient within their degreed profession, without regard for the corporations formed to create the useful endeavors of UV light – the creator of the tanning bed. LET ME MAKE ONE THING PERFECTLY CLEAR – THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION WAS UNTRAINED AND DID NOT HAVE DEGREES, AT ALL. AND THEN THERE BECAME THE AMA, BERKLEY COLLEGE, HARVARD MEDICAL, ETC. These institutions were someone’s dream, became reality, and so is the way many industries are born, developed and maintained in the US today.

I've only just begun on this! However, I am in the process of getting myself off to Vegas! Don't have the hours to put together the entire basis of each ground - BUT I CAN!! I've been doing this for a very long time and FYI, I was in law school when I was offered a position to become Director of Operations for a finance company. I love doing research for legal, often help my friends who are Attorneys. I could actually write every ground, and present them to an attorney to bulldog the entire process, with very little effort.

And, I love a challenge! You - say "go"!

_________________
Terri Franssen

[ This Message was edited by: TFranssen on 2005-06-12 23:23 ]


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/12/05 11:37p
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And, what is this?? http://www.tantalk.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2323394&forum=1

More substantial evidence indicating that our first ground has great merit!




navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 6:08a
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TF, I agree to disagree. The problem as I see it is that it is very inconsistent through out the industry. On the one hand you have the salon owners that are running there business as it should be run with proper trainning and client screening to insure that no harm is done to a client.
On the other hand you have salons that are out there that are running on poor information, little or no training, and that are harming the industry as a whole. When it comes time to lay it on the line, the ADA will point out these salons and use them as an example.
What I think needs to be done instead of a class action law suit is, the salons that are out there doing things the way it should be done need to come togeather as a group(sorta like the ITA) and form a type of "club" (for lack of a better term) that has credibility in the eyes of the public. Once you are a member of said "club" you will be inspected on a ramdom but unanounced time frame, if you fail to keep your salon in the shape and order to which the "club" has outlined, you will no longer be a part of that "club".
Once we have that in place, we can then start a national advertising campaign that showes the benifits of indoor tanning and to make sure the salon that you goto is a "club" member.
Don't get me wrong, a law suit is not a bad idea, but by the time it winds it's way through the system, it will be years before anyone will even hear about what the outcome is.

We need something to be done RIGHT NOW! If the derms get there way, we will all be sittting on a pile of useless equipment!!!!!


tantootx
Experienced Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 7:06a
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Navagatin1, That is the best idea I have heard in a long time. I want to be in the club. Have my dues ready to send. For instance, I'm so tired of people telling me the ABC Salon down the street doesn't make me wait 24 hours to tan and why do I have to wear eyewear, ABC doesn't make you or have them in the room, or ABC let me go the full time on my first visit, or why do I have to fill out a skin typing questionair, ABC doesn't make you do that. I could go on. This would be a great step for us to take to show we care about the public are safety minded and are not just in business to make a buck


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 7:16a
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Everyone talks a good game...but we all just want to talk about it. I am tired of talking and asking for action...I am with you Terri, its better to just do something to wake everyone the heck up.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 7:35a
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The main issue I'm hearing everyday is that we need something that works to bring everyone together and proactively target them at their own game, correct? However, the medical industry is under a permenant injunction for the breech of the Sherman Antitrust Act - that Act isn't about whether something causes or does not cause cancer! It is about one corporate intity bashing another corporate intity into the ground! There are many things that the medical industry has done to result in wrongful death suits, permanent infertility, misdiagnosis, miscarriage, deformation, brain damage, and the list is out infinity on the medical lawsuits!

That is a fact! Your businesses have been formed so your families can earn a living! No matter what your salon looks like, how you treat your customers or whether you have beds that have been beaten with a baseball bat - you have done nothing but earn an honest living!! Which is exactly why SHERMAN ANTITRUST ACT is in existence!


tantootx
Experienced Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 7:42a
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Ok,I'm in too. If we spent half as much time fighting something like this as we do fighting each other we would be way ahead of the game.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:01a
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Injunction to Cease and Desist the Boycot of Teenage Tanning, Anti Indoor Tanning Promotions and Allocated Efforts of AMA, AAD and medical professionals in conjuntion to the Demise of a valid business practice thereof.
injunction: in law, order of a court directing a party to perform a certain act or to refrain from an act or acts. The injunction, which developed as the main remedy in equity, is used especially where money damages would not satisfy a plaintiff's claim, or to protect personal or property rights from irreparable harm. It has been historically important especially in tort, domestic relations, labor, and civil-rights law.

Originally courts granted only prohibitory injunctions, on the grounds that the performance of affirmative orders could not be easily compelled or supervised. In the 19th cent., though, affirmative (mandatory) injunctions began to be used, and they are now granted in unusual circumstances. Injunctions issued while an action is pending are termed preliminary, or interlocutory; they are intended to protect the plaintiff's interest so that a final judgment will not be worthless, and they cannot, for the most part, be reviewed by higher courts. If irreparable injury would result even before notice of a hearing could be served, the court may grant a temporary restraining order, which is binding on the defendant until a hearing can be held. A final or perpetual injunction is part of the final judgment of the court, and may be issued after all the evidence has been heard.

Injunctions, like most remedies of an equitable nature, are usually granted by a judge sitting without a jury. The broad discretion courts have enjoyed in using this power has, however, been limited by statute in many areas of the law. An injunction is essentially a personal order, and a defendant who disobeys may be punished for contempt. An injunction in force may be terminated or modified by the court.

Injunctions are today granted in many circumstances where courts of equity formerly refused to act. Thus, courts have ordered the performance of the terms of a contract, or the payment of legal damages by a defendant, sparing the plaintiff the need to seek execution of a judgment. Injunctions have long been used to abate nuisances. The use of the injunction in labor disputes has been a matter of great controversy in U.S. history.

In the late 19th cent. employers were often granted injunctions against strikes or boycotts when they alleged that the purpose of labor's activity (e.g., unreasonably limiting the employer's freedom by requiring him to hire only union members) was illegal. The power of federal courts to enjoin union activity was restricted by the Federal Anti-Injunction (Norris-LaGuardia) Act of 1932, and many states passed similar laws. Later legislation, however, including the 1947 Taft-Hartley Labor Act and the 1959 Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act, restored much of the power to use labor injunctions.




DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 8:03a
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who is our attorney?


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:07a
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Teenagers are the TARGET MARKET and number ONE source of income for the Derms! They are marketing within their own website information the use of UV treatments at 20 minutes per session and 3 x per week! Why would a parent allow their insurance company to be ripped off and pay a $15-30 co-pay for each visit - when the tanning industry is here providing the exact same service for less?

YOU GUYS CAN DO THIS - BUT ONLY COLLECTIVELY IN EACH AND EVERY STATE!!


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:10a
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I'd say someone needs to contact the attorney that handled the case for Wilks - that is, if he's still alive, or in practice! If not, the firm may still be around.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 8:12a
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Has the ITA looked at going this route? Why have our tanning orgs. not gone this route?


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:12a
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$12 from each salon should suffice - making it $1 per month per year, as suggested! 10,000 salons in participation will give $120k to begin the endeavor! WOW! And how much money have you been paying to others for your protection????


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 8:15a
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we need to find an attorney so he can set up an escrow account....or I nominate you since you are a 3rd party....

_________________
Any Advice given please consider the size of your market!

[ This Message was edited by: DWhite6872 on 2005-06-13 08:16 ]


dcjjp2
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:35a
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I'm in! Keep me posted.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:36a
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I could be your spokesperson! One thing about it, I wouldn't take your money and sit around smoking cigars with politicians! Then of course somebody has got to do that stuff! And someone else must take a stand while they do the hobnobbing!

Dana, I nominate YOU to open the account and count the dough, distribute it and ensure that every dime goes to the publicist and attorney for filing fees and such. I will do the leg work and find the appropriate people to handle it.

ITA needs to be called in as Expert Witnesses and handle the publicist information output. Tanning Trainers need to handle building a foundation to present ourselves knowledgeagle, etc.

PTAF could also work directly with the publicist for time frames in output of media presentation. Someone will have to speak on our behalf with ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN etc. Find a quality person - Dr. Hollick, Don Smith, etc.

What else?


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:37a
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I'd say, ensure the corporate intity is structured as a NON PROFIT. As the financial gain will go towards the cause and ONLY the cause!


GENIUS
Administrator Posted: 6/13/05 8:41a
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Lack of ORGANIZATION is a problem here.


Mitzi
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 8:47a
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PTAF already have lawyers in place Terri. Contact Bob Wagner, see what he has to say on this.


engfant
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 9:08a
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I'm down.


capetan
Still a Newbie Posted: 6/13/05 9:33a
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Just let me know what to do next. Why everybody wouldn't be all for this will amaze me!


angelcat04
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 9:39a
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Count me in too.


Jancy
Veteran Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 10:06a
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When I was in practice as a PT, years ago, we used to have UV hand held lights that we used for therapy. We were required to make up a UV scale on an area of the patient's body (imagine a stip of paper with a hole punched in it every inch)and every minute we'd uncover a area until the entire paper was revealed. When the patient came back the next day we would use the first area where the skin turned pink as their skin type information (for example: UV light @ 6" x 3 minutes) and submit this to the doctor. Then we'd get back a prescription for UV light therapy for 2 weeks @ 6" x 3 minutes. This was UV therapy, I had to wear UV blockers and isolate the area where the UV was being applied. I don't remember the strength of the UV light, but I know it was darn strong. And I wasn't given any UV blockers for the patient to use, they were told not to look at the light or we'd set up a sheet to prevent them from seeing the area. Now we know that the light still penetrated that sheet......
The medical field practice of UV therapy is very specific but it has fallen out of practice. I understand that UV therapy is still instructed and still remains on the State Board Exam's for therapy as a challengable practice. I don't know if this helps with the details of how UV therapy is written as a prescription by the medical field, but is shows you that the medical field took steps to insure that a baseline was first measured and then therapy was stated only on the grounds of the baseline. UV therapy was used for bed sores because of the bacterio-static effect for infected bed sores which I used to treat, it was used to make the med's activate, it was used for acne and other skin conditions that we are all now familiar with. I was never allowed to use the UV for any purpose p/except under the direct prescription or verbal permission of the physician. Once the PT department set up the baseline for the UV application, nursing could take over and apply the UV on a set schedule.
Nursing uses bili-lights for newborns also, but again this was set by physicians on a predetermined schedule (I refused bililights for my babies, I remember seeing newborn babies under the lights without any protection for their eyes or the nurses put wads of cotton taped over their eyes.... I simply took mine home same day of birth and laid them out nude for a few minutes in a warm area under the regular sunshine on a daily basis with their heads in the shade and eyes protected.) Medical therapy using UV lights used to be really, really specific, but it was also really, really bad and didn't protect anybody's eyes.
Imagine all these parents of newborns going back to the hospital stating "I remember seeing my newborn with a 4 x 4 cotten dressing taped over his eyes and he laid for hours at a time under the bililights" and wanting damages for the child's eyes..... every woman in this country would be in on this claim.


tanstan
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 11:25a
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I am in!!! It is about time we shut them up!!!


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 12:45p
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Can someone tell me what efforts the attorneys for PTAF are making? That would be a helpful bit of information, as I haven't seen any posts about that.


JOLEE
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 12:57p
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count me in as well! let me know where to send my $12.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 1:11p
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Okay...Terri. I will set up an escrow account and financials...but I need you for the Attorney and research...deal? I need to talk to our attorney and see if it should be a .org..or how to set it up.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 1:12p
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Do we want to set this up for attack? Or finally a Possitive Vit.D campaign for local markets?


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 1:14p
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A counter attack. The positive aspects will come from the salon owners informing there customers.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 1:28p
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I knew I liked you...


ALOHATANCA
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/13/05 1:46p
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be there or be square !! I am in.


river_brat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/13/05 5:43p
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I like the idea of the salon owners forming an alliance against the negative press. I think if we formed something to this extent, we might be heard more effectively than just as an individual salon level. Perhaps by having this we could get together that each month a different news letter is sent out to each of our individual markets so salon owners may send to the media outlets, to our clientelle, and anyother avenue at hand. This way the same exact information is going out to every market across the united states. I believe that would make a huge impact. Not only would it show and alliance, but also demonstrate that we as salon owners have our sh$t together.

COUNT me in. I am tired of sitting and waiting for organizations to take control as I sit and watch the derms ruin the industry!!!


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/14/05 8:30a
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We/us/I need to make sure that the lotion industry pays there fair share into this battle as well. The way i see it if the lotion makers do not want "in" on this program, then I will not carry anything from them. This has to be a national scale counter attack against the negative press that we have recieved, and it will cost quite a bit to keep us on the front lines with the derm's.

We have to get organized and quick! We have to have at least a foundation in place by the end of the summer with a solid footing on a release of the program by the 1st of the year!


soapking
Veteran Tantalker Posted: 6/15/05 4:25a
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Where is the ITA??

Isn't that why you pay dues??

Each industry should have one voice to guide, direct and protect..
Show no support for the ITA shows, and perhaps they will become more pro-active..


CRB
Brand New Talker Posted: 6/15/05 10:36a
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Over the last few years I have read a number of ideas regarding this matter on every website our industry has to offer. Some were better than others... and some were just rediculous. Finally, an idea that seems to have the beginnings of a well thought out direction for us to take. Being able to implement such an action will be our test as an industry to come together. If each owner put just a fraction of effort into this, our combined force could well become one to be reconed with.
Procrastinating will bite us in the arse soon.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/16/05 11:42a
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Dana, Lets not consider it a "battle", per se; let's call it over due - justice!! I'll be back on Monday to help get everything in motion. Did you set up the account? If so, do you have the deposit information or mailing address for everyone to send their $12?

All those who are "in" should send in the fees to retain the attorney and publicist. I'd say the attorney for Chiro - may already have good publicist! A dual effort should go smoothly with them involved in a proactive methodical beginning!!

I AM SO EXCITED FOR YOU GUYS!!


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/16/05 11:55a
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I have called it the TSAF which stand for "Tanning salon action fund".
The bank account is set up...the mailing address is 3982 Powell Rd.Suite 307 Powell Ohio 43065 ...
I look forward to talking to you Terri when you get back..I am deposting $1,000 to start.


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/16/05 12:09p
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Lets not get to excited just yet. Lets "get er done" first!


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/16/05 12:45p
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Okay, ONE MORE VERY IMPORTANT THING: Lets leave the lotion and bed mfgs OUT - FOR NOW!! First, they have plenty of money - in that you are correct!! BUT: they haven't done anything positive to assist in these efforts as of yet - in this particular manner and it is my own opinion, as they are the main reps on the board at ITA - and more politically focused! NOT A BAD THING! But doing you 0% with those tactics at this time! Second, as a joint effort with ONLY salons - I believe YOU can combine efforts on all levels to enforce your own justification on ALL LEVELS!! Remember, this TSAF - will consist of SALON OWNERS for and on their own behalf!! Other problems can be nicely handled one at a time!! THIS PARTICULAR ENDEAVOR IS TOP PRIORITY AND FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS!! SALON OWNERS ONLY!! Dana, right now, do not accept monetary investment from anyone other than salon owners!!

We'll begin the endeavors to generate donations from other sources, AFTER we form our top representatives in each state! Volunteers for each state should start cropping up now, PLEASE!!


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/16/05 1:01p
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I agree...we have to show we are willing to put our money out there


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/16/05 1:34p
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I would love to have the time to go around my state to check on things, but unfor in my situation I am the only one running the show.
I will do whatever I can from behind my desk!

Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but I myself would like to see an action plan drawn up as to what are the things that the money's are being used for. A step by step plan of attack and cost assoc with each step. I don't want myself or anyone else sending money to anyone until we know what it's being used for.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/16/05 2:02p
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Terri will have that when she gets back...I would think the attorney would work for a settlement depending on how good of a case he thinks we have...but the publicist will cost money...
I can tell you I have enough to do durning the day...so I would be more than happy to give quarterly statements and have a group of people nominate themselves to sit on the board or help...but so far noone has ever done anything...and it will be quick and with direction...and not a bunch of wishy washy stuff...or I won't do it.


tantootx
Experienced Tantalker Posted: 6/16/05 7:58p
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So do we need to make the check out to TSAF and mail to that address? Would that be the proper way to do it? If there is something I can do let me know.


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/16/05 9:55p
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Lets get a estimate of costs...then we can have a "salon drive" ...I am just happy we might be able to do something...and I think Terri has a great idea..I am excited and thinking what have I just gotten myself into...


lil_missfit
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/17/05 7:37a
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What is the account number for this fund? Did you set it up officially? Is it a non-profit, LLC ?????

Nothing personal here, but I think there is more to be done, before you start accepting any contributions. Just my opinion.

Sheri



Neon Beach
Posted: 6/17/05 8:07a
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Just curious? Say such a law suit went ahead, and it would likely be quite a public battle. Has anyone considered the consequences to the tanning industry should the case be lost?

_________________


"Wooaa is me...."
~Schleprock

[ This Message was edited by: Neon Beach on 2005-06-17 08:54 ]


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/17/05 8:14a
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This has been a discussion on another site for awhile. There are legal issues to be considered before going ahead such as the account, the corporation, officers, etc.... Not to sound negative, but you need to have some safegards in place to assure that no one person has access to the money. These issues have been discussed as well as using the lotion manufacturers to assist in advertising.

Neon pointed out a great point about lawsuits. Don't be too quick to jump on that. The AMA has more money and power that a few salon owners. Are you willing to put your salon on the block?


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/17/05 1:29p
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I do not think talking about consequences is negative...I was waiting to see if anyone had another side...every action causes a reaction....

What would happen? What is the best way? What will happen if we all continue to do nothing?


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/17/05 2:32p
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Also, do not send anything yet until Terri talks to the attorney.
I think anyone who would like to volunteer, to see if the idea has merit or not...pm either one of us... . Who knows after more due dilligence if it will have legs or not...but if you would like to be more involved let either of us know.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/19/05 10:56p
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Ok, Here's the scoop for you and others like you Neon: There really WON'T be a lawsuit! With the Wilks attorneys on the case, the most we'll need is a death defying letter to the AMA and AAD - one that indicates a second breech in the Antitrust Laws and the outcome of a suit, should it be necessary! Past and present actions therein are too similar for them not to back off!!

We just have to afford the right team of lawyers and the right publicist and our work will be DONE! That simple and I promise not to guide you into a full blown battle! You just have to trust that their past guilt is a mirror image of their current attacks!

I'd never EVER suggest anything to hurt the smaller, larger or chain salons and would not guide you into a deathtrap! I just can't figure out why others that have taken your money haven't taken these steps!



navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 5:51a
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Quote:
I just can't figure out why others that have taken your money haven't taken these steps!



Simple, on the way to do the "said" project, they got detoured by a Wendy's!


tantootx
Experienced Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 6:23a
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How is the PTAF going to react to this? Should someone contact them and let them know our plans to give them a chance to take our wishes and move on it. They have the structure in place already etc.. What we don't need is a public battle within the industry about this. I'm just asking.


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 8:45a
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If you want to do a letter writing campaign, you do not have to hire laywers. A bunch of Salon Owners can do the same thing. As soon as you bring lawyers into the mix, you will be starting something that I doubt you are really prepared to get into. Quite simply Lawyers = Law suits = lots of $ and, IMHO, a very large loss fort he tanning industry in general.

To repeat myself, the AMA and Dermatologists, in general, have been running roughshod over the industry for many years. Why? Because they have that "MD" behind their name. If you do not believe that that "MD" is meaningless, then you are in for a rude awakening... What do you have to counter it? You have a "MBA"? That will be useless. A PhD? It better be in the sciences like anatomy or physiology to be any good. You think being a salon owner for 20 years counts? You are being silly then.

You better think before you go hiring lawyers to do your thinking for you.


Ezliving_Jim
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 9:41a
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How is the "industry" going to prove financial damages, an essential element of a tort.

I can't "prove" to a legal standard that the dermoterrorists and AAD have hurt my business. My sales and sessions count have increased.

Sure, my competitors are having a more difficult time of it. But they are as likely to blame me as the AAD.




TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 11:11a
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Personally, if I were a salon owner, my main concern wouldn't be the collection of damages, per se. It would be a cease and desist of the target against our industry. However, we could offer a settlement to collect our loss of attorney fees within small portions of the industry going toward public alliance with insurance companies, ita and PTAF, as well as a public apology.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 11:19a
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http://www.nutrawell.com/Resources/DrugPushers.html#hypocrisy


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 11:20a
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http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/AT/at00.html


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 11:47a
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I have contacted the firm that was listed as lead Counsel on the Wilk vs AMA case. Of course, as I predicted Mr. Arbauch is deceased. However, his office specializes in cases of this nature. Dana, I left you a message with their contact information and Marge will be in contact.

I hope you are all willing to take part in this on a collective manner, as that is the ONLY way to stop them!

I also hope the PTAF and ITA will provide any assistance you may need in further developments! Best of luck!!


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/20/05 11:48a
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Good stuff!


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/21/05 9:37a
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Hey I was thinking. In another post I was looking for a "pamphlet of tanning facts" to hand out to my customers as part of a welcome packete.
What if one of the first things we do is get something like this made for all the salon owners that are part of "the club" as a first line of defence towards getting our customers in the loop of the positive things of tanning.
We could figure out what to put in it that would not be breaking any laws, and then have it mass produced to keep the cost down.

Any ideas????????


bsmart
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/21/05 12:22p
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The Tanning Truth. com has this information you're referring to. I don't understand why the "club" isn't either the ITA or SmartTan. If you're in one of those organizations why aren't you in the "club"? These organizations should be the leaders in this effort, and should be protecting the rights of salon owners.

I also thought that PTAF was going to take this thing from the legal side and work to the benefit of salon owners. This is beginning to get strangely confusing. So many organizations to send money to, and so little measurable representation.


bsmart
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/21/05 12:25p
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BUT, if you get this thing going and an account # to me to support......I'm IN !!

Pass the Kool-Aid!!
_________________


[ This Message was edited by: bsmart on 2005-06-21 12:26 ]


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/21/05 1:49p
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The key word in your statement is "should", they should be doing alot of things but they are not!!!!!


DWhite6872
Tantalk Moderator Posted: 6/21/05 6:01p
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What is the right idea? I would like to know why it has not been considered before? Is it because it is a really bad idea?
What are the right steps...and would you need the "stars and moon to align perfectly" for something to change...and if we waited, would it be too late?

Why do I feel like "Carrie" off of Sex and the City? (all the questions)


_________________
Any Advice given please consider the size of your market!

[ This Message was edited by: DWhite6872 on 2005-06-21 18:02 ]


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/21/05 6:40p
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If the "city" fits wear it!


tantootx
Experienced Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 7:49a
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I like the "Club Phamplet" idea. I printed out that article of late about benifits of sunlight, you know the one. People loved it and was taking them right and left to share with husbands, etc.. Was that legal, probably not, but customers are starving for the right information.


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 8:36a
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Quote:

On 2005-06-20 11:11:00, TFranssen wrote:
Personally, if I were a salon owner,



WHAT????? You're not a salon owner? And you're suggesting a law suit???????? NO WAY JOSE!!!!!!!! If you do not understand the simple fact that our collective monies would be less than a drop in the bucket, then you need to go back to basic law school. As noted above, in a tort case you need to prove damages. Show me the damages....Show proof that we have suffered...NOT!!!!!

Our best bet is to fight fire with fire. Campaign...campaign...campaign......send the letters...get the advertising out that is "truthful" and if possible get the manufacturers to do the advertising.


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 9:24a
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Ram take it easy for christ sake. There is no need to start insulting people!

Breath in, breath out, repeat...........


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 9:28a
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What's the insult? Just because I think he is talking out of school? Oh well...If it is taken out of context, then I'm sorry. But I still believe he is dead wrong in his thinking and anybody that wants to follow his advice is asking to bring upon themselves a retalitory answer that will cause damage to the whole tanning industry.

If you think we are regulated now, try this and see what happens. We'll be regulated out of business. And those states that are not regulated? STAND BY!!!!!


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 9:39a
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I hear ya buddy, but we are just tossing ideas around to see what(if anything) we can do as salon owners. It's obvious that ITA, Smartan and the rest are not doing enuff!

So start laying down some ideas as to what we can collectively do as salon owners to either spread the word, or combat against the derms.


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 9:43a
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It's inappropriate for me to tell you to look somewhere else, but this idea was started at another forum that you are a member of.


navigatin1
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 9:49a
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Oh I know I saw it, but not everyone belongs to that site as well. Just covering all bases!


ramcat
Master Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 10:07a
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They can come over and take a look. We don't bite.


TFranssen
Tantalker Posted: 6/22/05 6:34p
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YOU CAN PUT THIS WHERE YOU WILL - BUT LET ME MAKE ONE THING PERFECTLY CLEAR - MY EFFORTS IN THIS INDUSTRY ARE TOTALLY UNSELFISH AND I HAVE ASKED YOU FOR NOTHING IN RETURN!!

YOU MAY NOT BE AWARE - BUT ITA IS ONLY TRAVELING THROUGHOUT THE POLITICAL ARENA AND MAKING YOUR REGULATIONS!! A "THREAT OF SUIT" WOULD NOT ACCOMPLISH MORE THAN YOUR OWN MONEY IS DOING RIGHT NOW!!

BEST OF LUCK!!





Copyright Tantalk 2005

TFranssen 06-22-2005 07:08 PM

The fact is, I wasn't spamming! DIDN'T ASK ANYONE FOR ANYTHING! Why would anyone put it there? Want to talk regulations? What in the heck do you thing your ITA money is going to? WASHINGTON! To what?? Make state regulations happen! NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS!

FACT IS: YOU CAN STAY WHERE YOU ARE - I COULD CARE LESS - JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE YOU REALLY DON'T WANT MY ASSISTANCE!
GOOD LUCK! I'M OFF THIS SITE! SOON, YOU'LL FIGURE OUT HOW THE GROUPS ALREADY FORMED REALLY WORK! YOU COULD COMPARE THEM TO: BILLIONS EARNED IN THE SEARCH FOR THE CURE OF CANCER! THE INCOME GENERATED TO FIND THE CURE IS TO GREAT FOR ANYONE TO EVER PUBLICLY ADMIT THE FINDING!!

I WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK!


_________________
Terri Franssen

[ This Message was edited by: TFranssen on 2005-06-22 19:17 ][ This Message was edited by: TFranssen on 2005-06-23 01:20 ]

Sheila in Minnesota 06-22-2005 07:11 PM

~ Terri ~

My time here (and possibly the viewing of my posts) will be limited due to censorship ....

www.tanformation.com should be back online soon ..... I would be happy to ensure you safe passage there.... There are PLENTY of opinions, and not all will agree with you .... but you will be safe from ignorance as long as I still have a few fingers left!

My email is Sassytan41761@yahoo.com

Feel free to contact me there.

Respectfully,

S

navigatin1 06-22-2005 07:22 PM

TF, don't take the comments of a few to sum up the salon owners as a whole!!!!!!

I have no idea why that got moved to spam, but I agree that it is uncalled for!!!!!1

Sheila in Minnesota 06-22-2005 08:37 PM

Is there an Icon for a 'Cowardly Lion' on this site?

if there is.... I think the "Moderator" that moved a private forum topic to public view & placed it in the spam attack section should display that icon proudly.

Perhaps it was a group effort???? You know what happens when 'grate'minds think alike!


If you only had the Heart, a Brain, The Nerve
_________________

Standing Firm Against Diversion, Spammers and Obnoxious Vendors like Dorsey & Grip Adverslandering[ This Message was edited by: Sheila in Minnesota on 2005-06-22 20:38 ]

Sol Sister 06-22-2005 08:45 PM

Terri-

PLEASE keep the thoughts comming... some people will always stand still when they don't know what else to do and they'll try to keep you there with them thinking it is safest to stay put. Others believe that action is the best solution to any "problem." All anyone can do is offer a "hand" (an idea, a solution, something that may spur other ideas and action) but it is up to each individual to reach back out or not- just stand with folded arms... There was some good thinking going on and some good idea sharing. I am sorry this was moved (as it is not spam) except that I am not yet in the IP forum, so I got to read it too...

It is encouraging that many are trying to improve this industry in so many ways.


TFranssen 06-23-2005 01:24 AM

Don't worry, I'm available to you all! ALWAYS! No strings attached! JUST NOT HERE!! Contact myself or Dana and we'll move forward accordingly against EVERYONE taking your money, using their pull against you and displacing your trusts! I will create a site myself where fairness AND INTEGRITY is FIRST PRIORITY FOR YOU, THE INDUSTRY I KNOW AND LOVE!

Sheila in Minnesota 06-24-2005 01:34 PM

It would appear via the grapevine, that some moderators felt the FEAR FACTOR that Terri's post within the Private Forum could lead to Tantalk being sued..... some bullchite about soliciting for legal fees....

While I have never been surprised by the lack of intelligence displayed by many with the TAG of moderator.... I am VERY surprised that Mike Chunn took their advice and was the instrument of this travesty.

While there has ALWAYS been difficulties and naysayers to EVERY EFFORT put forth to save this industry..... I am determined that this will NOT STOP THIS EFFORT.

Some people take a smack on their face and turn the other cheek ----

Some people feel so powerless in their own business they cannot imagine how to fight the AMA and the AAD and the Cosmetic Companys..... and like the deer in the headlights - they will STAY AND GET THEIR *** KICKED.

Time is not only right - - - it's getting over ripe as we sit beating each other senseless.

To those that have the will, the spirit and the intellectual desire to STOP THE MADNESS - my heartfelt thanks to you!

engfant 06-24-2005 01:42 PM

Pathetic. SINCE WHEN CAN OPEN FORUM FREEDOM OF SPEECH BE FOUND LIABLE??

I was wondering what happened to this thread. I only keep up with the HOT TOPICS and when they are tossed like this one they no longer show up.

Like Sheila said, Tanformation will be back soon (not soon enough). There is just too much HYPOCRITICAL NONSENSE going on in this here OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION BOARD.

I mean, the owner of the web site is one of the top lowballers in the industry, SUPPORTS diversion (as we wait for google ads to pull up) and silences all PRO TANNING TALK?????

Why do we support this PIECE OF CRAP site again? Oh yeah, it's the one closest to God (yet worships a "false idol" like the sun for profits ). I forget sometimes.

_________________
http://www.georgewbush.org/

Hos in all the area codes![ This Message was edited by: engfant on 2005-06-24 13:44 ]

navigatin1 06-24-2005 01:50 PM

HOLY CRAP!!!! Can anyone say anything around here!!!!

engfant 06-24-2005 01:59 PM

Pathetic. SINCE WHEN CAN OPEN FORUM FREEDOM OF SPEECH BE FOUND LIABLE??

I was wondering what happened to this thread. I only keep up with the HOT TOPICS and when they are tossed like this one they no longer show up.

Like Sheila said, Tanformation will be back soon (not soon enough). There is just too much HYPOCRITICAL NONSENSE going on in this here OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION BOARD.

I mean, the owner of the web site is one of the top CENSORED in the industry, SUPPORTS CENSORED (as we wait for google ads to pull up) and silences all PRO TANNING TALK?????

Why do we support this CENSORED site again? Oh yeah, it's the one closest to CENSORED (yet worships a "CENSORED" like the CENSORED for CENSORED ). I forget sometimes.

Is that better? I just removed the TRUTH so it's nice and ready for presentation.

Neon Beach 06-24-2005 02:04 PM

Quote:
On 2005-06-24 13:50:00, navigatin1 wrote:
HOLY CRAP!!!! Can anyone say anything around here!!!!
Personal attacks aka bashing is generally not accepted. I suspect we will see more in the very near future, watch......

river_brat 06-24-2005 02:13 PM

This is a very significant issue that was discussed, my question is why is it any business of the mods to with hold such an educational post from others to learn from. There was no foul, sexual language, no spamming, that would cause for any grounds of removal. I understand the needs for mods, but in this case why is it the desicion of the higher beings on this web site to dicate what I should be exposed to in such a topic that is very important to our industry as a whole?

navigatin1 06-24-2005 02:14 PM

See no, hear no, speak no!

ramcat 06-24-2005 02:16 PM

Let me state this simply:

#1...There is no Gag order on the tanning industry. This is just a scare tactic by those who have nothing to lose but your salons.

#2. You cannot place a Gag order on research that is documented and that is what the AMA is doing. They have been doing research on mice for years, killing them and telling the public of the results.

If you want to follow a group of non-salon owners that are placing your livelyhood at risk, that is your decision. However, you won't see my name on that list. i plan on surviving this insanity.

#4. If you want to fight them, use the same tactics they use. The information is out there and documented by PROFESSIONALS. (A key word here). Use that information to your best benefits. Get the word out in ads, newsletters and such. Be smart, not insane.

Beach Club Tans 06-24-2005 02:27 PM

Hmmmmm... good points on both sides of the discussion. But all this shouting gives me a headache. Cold beer anyone?

Neon Beach 06-24-2005 02:29 PM

Set'em up!!

ramcat 06-24-2005 02:35 PM

In a frosted mug please.

Sol Sister 06-24-2005 02:36 PM

RC- Please explain this "hitting them from places they cannot fight back, the media"- How can they Not fight back, they are all over the media- why have a media tit-for-tat in the public without the backings of a motion being filed? IMO we need both. The motion gains movement and weight with press- the press is substantiated by the motion being filed... they feed off of each other and gain substance along the way- one without the other would be meaningless. It is my understanding that salons cannot make any medical claims or claim any benefit other than a "cosmetic tan" of exposure to UVR. Yes, this is not a "gag-order" perse, so maybe we should use different terminology for this restriction. We are free to send or direct or request that our local and national news networks report new articles of research that are pro-sun, pro-UVR exposure, pro-HEALTH... but the likelihood of them running it slim to none- UNLESS, we unite professionally, take action together as one unit, get a PR representative and present the information as fact- fact enough for us to legally present to the AMA that they are breaking the Sherman Act and supporting ill-health and injury to millions of people, taking their money, raising their healthcare costs, etc. We must also support the message (as strongly as possible) to NEVER BURN, to be smart about UV exposure, to inspire the regualr folks sitting on their couches to be pro-active about their health. Independently run this would be a simple ad for "Joe's Tan Shack"- nothing wrong with that (for Joe) but Joe alone will not change public opinion or affect change for the image of the industry.

It is ok that we are not on the exact same page right now- all involved should step back for a sec and debate the process and procedure we should be following- no personal bashes involved, that will only side track and divide us. Debate and thought sharing are part of this process, I say emrace it and put your thoughts out there.

To back Sheila's assertion that Big Pharma and Government are losing ground with the public trust, I offer this piece from Rolling Stone Mag- http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7395411 -These kinds of reports are showing up everywhere and when they start KC*F-ing with our children, trust as a whole will have been erroded to a nub for the AMA and the FDA across the board. They will have bigger damage control to deal with than the tanning industry- I agree with the thinking that the timing is right for a collective action on the part of salon owners and independently or collectively on the part of anyone else involved in the industry that stands to lose their livelihood if tanning is eventually banned or restricted to the point that UV equipment can only be operated by a Dr.

THE SUN IS FREE, if indoor salons are gone- people will not go to the Dr's office for a tan... with a $5-40 co-pay per session- they cannot make a living running a tanning salon out of the Dr's office.

My .02

Beach Club Tans 06-24-2005 02:43 PM

Breaking out my emergency cold beer set up...



_________________
*Nothing happens until a sale is made*[ This Message was edited by: Beach Club Tans on 2005-06-24 14:46 ]

Beach Club Tans 06-24-2005 02:45 PM

These mugs big enough?


Sol Sister 06-24-2005 02:52 PM

Mojito's appropriate for this occassion?
1. Make simple syrup: Heat equal parts sugar and water in a saucepan until just before boiling and stir until the sugar has completely dissolved. Make up a big batch – say a cup of sugar and a cup of water – than toss it in the fridge … it’ll easily keep for a couple of weeks, during which time you’ll be able to whip up mojitos at a moment’s notice, to the delight of your very fortunate friends.
2. Place the mint leaves and 1 tbsp. of the simple syrup (cooled) in the glass, then squish it all around with a spoon (or whatever appropriate utensil you can find) for 20-30 seconds, until you can smell that good minty smell. . what you'll need:
2˝ oz. light rum
1 lime
1 tbsp. simple syrup
mint leaves (8 or so sprigs worth)
ice
club soda
tall glass
spoon, or some other utensil that can be used to mash the mint leaves
3. Cut the lime in half. Squeeze the juice out from both halves into the glass, then drop one half into the glass.
4. Pour in the rum and stir.
5. Add plenty of ice, then top off the mixture with club soda. Garnish with a sprig of mint and enjoy!

JohnnyComeLately 06-24-2005 03:01 PM

Holy crap, that RollingStone story sends shivers as I consider what my 2 year old has had injected lately.

I didn't know Terri's post was moved to Spam, as I've been extremely busy working with Terri/Landlord/Brokers/Vendors/Contractors to get our 2nd location off the ground.

As a salon owner, I welcome any veteran or outsider who has input to make the industry better. Do I have time to research this? Nope, but I'd support any effort to help. I was under the impression that SmartTan or *gulp* "the other one" would do this, but I've been disappointed with what I've observed in the last year or so. So I find myself in the unfamiliar realm of completely, without exception, agreeing with Sheila, Ramcat and Engfant on this topic.

I'll leave it at that before I start something I don't have time to finish


ramcat 06-24-2005 03:01 PM

Sol Sister...You have made some very valid points. However, any attempt to place any type of injunction agains them will be fruitless. They are sprouting data from research. As long as their data is accurate, we cannot dispute it. However, but placing out proven information in the same type of media, we are making our points known. It may not be the strongest move, but it is a move in the right direction by getting the TOTAL information out and not that info that only the AMA wants out.

Shelia and those that wish to start a lawsuit need to research the medical journals and the thousends of research papers that have been written and published before going forward. The have the majority of the ammunition. We have very little. Ours is just now beginning to come out and some want to start a war using pop-guns.

Don't be too sure that there are not lotion manufacturers that won't back us once we begin. I think you'll be surprised.

If you read the posts, you'll see that I am in favor of getting things going and have already don so. It may not entail a war party, but I'll go to the media with the proven documentation that cannot be disputed; I'll print out my newsletter for my customers and place a lot of them in the local restaurants and other public places to be read by the general public. I'm doing those thing that I know that I can do that the AMA and derm's cannot do anything about because they 've approved that documentation themselves. That's how you hit them from behind. You their own weapons.

Sheila in Minnesota 06-24-2005 03:06 PM

Typical.

This site has removed from view the entire thread started by Terri in the Industry Pro's private forum.... and from what I can *see* it has not been moved BACK to the private forum.....

Censorship by morons has caused wars greater than this.....

and derailing a topic with moronic dribble has become the Trade Mark of some of the moderators here.

www.simplytantexas.com does not allow this type of unethical moderator behavior and I will be discussing this issue there..... when www.tanformation.com is back up - - we will be able to keep up with the ongoing discussions that could actually be the FINAL NEED TO FIGHT BACK.... for those with the intelligence and the balls to do so.

Thanks for letting me post here again {albeit a shorter time than normal }

Fear is the 3 meals a day served to cowards

ramcat 06-24-2005 03:11 PM

I'm sure that Engfant will have a few things to say at tanformation.com, but that is not the only game in town. tantyme.com has been discussing this issue for a very ong time. We were laughing that we saw it here, but also happy that it is taking off in all of the forums.

A tanning forum that gives you a free tan just for joining? I'll be on a flight tomorrow...

howardtheduck 06-24-2005 03:19 PM

The entire industry is f'd up and we are all to blame. We are in an industry much like the food industry where there are trillions of dollars to be made but there is so much competition and oversaturation of the market place that everyone is losing and with the multi-billion dollar pharma industry breathing down our necks in a very public way, nothing will ever be solved with us te\aring each other apart. I'm no hippy but c'mon, chill out. Have a beer bro. It's just business after all.

Sheila in Minnesota 06-24-2005 03:25 PM

* the above post clearly exposes the mentality of the poster....

the effort to unite salon owners with or without the help of the ITA SmartTan and the MFGS has been an ongoing saga for over 7 years... read that 7 long years....

But if Ramcat wants to suggest HE and Tantyme are the chicken that laid the egg ... I'm kewl with that....

What I am not kewl with is wasting my time and energy ----- which is why I declined their request (on Tantyme) that I become involved in their effort - - - been there, done that and sold the skrewen t-shirt on E-bay!

I have ALOT of respect for Bob in Ohio.... and would normally never deny him anything - aside from making some valid suggestions on how to set up the Non for Profit and the State Membership comittiees.... I would not activley 'help' - - - not due to the personal conflicts I have with some salon owners.....

In the vast scheme of things - - - - personal conflicts are the equvilant to gnat poopoo in the Universe..... when the GOAL is to be achieved - personal differences can be put aside....

but in my honest opinion - - - after being involved in all sorts of failed efforts to SAVE THE TANNING WORLD.... Terri Fransen's is the only effort that makes sense, uses real logic, documents real facts that I will support.

Please note I have never said people should not take Tantymes efforts seriously.... never popped a squat and accused them of having agendas, or questioned their ethics....

That was all provided to Terri by Ramcat and pals.

Seriously - - - the industry is currently its own worst enemy

ramcat 06-24-2005 03:28 PM

There are many in this industry that did nothing to make it better, but you cannot say everyone is to blame. There are some that don't even know that they have issues. Some that just won't or refuse to become involved. There is money to be made and saturation, as with any industry that showed a plus potential to make money. Tht is the nature of the business. Like having a McDonalds and Burger King across the street from each other.

If you want to make an impact on something you have to become passionate about it. Otherwise, you are a follower.

I'll give Shelia her due. She is passionate about how she feels just as I am passionate about my views. That is what makes things happen and that is how people get together to form association, groups, etc. If you want to be part of this, become passionate, otherwise, have your beer.

howardtheduck 06-24-2005 03:35 PM

You want passion? Go watch your soap operas because if you two are as intense and judgemental of your customers as your pears, then your lobby is empty right now because people are afraid of you. By the way, I can't go have a beer because I have customers to take care of. I hope you still know what that feels like as you seem a little jaded with the industry. My Suggestion: Have a great weekend.

ramcat 06-24-2005 03:59 PM

Howard, My lobby is not empty and my customers appreciate my telling them how to get the most out of their tanning sessions. It's only Shelia that gets me going.

I am not jaded either. i just believe in these discussions and getting something started that will be good for everybody.

Hope you get that beer sometime.....

DWhite6872 06-24-2005 04:03 PM

who are any of us to state our opinions like they are fact? Lets take it down 10 steps...stop the he said she said...guess what...noone is wrong or right..this is not a one step plan. can we discuss ideas? Why is it when someone brings up an idea we want to nail them to a cross? Calm down....it is not about the Ramcat side or the Dwhite side...get over it!

The industry...our customers....information.....coming together as a group....

howardtheduck 06-24-2005 04:33 PM

agreed-I want to make money not kill or be killed.

DWhite6872 06-24-2005 04:36 PM

I agree, okay...we all would like to make money....lets make sure we have an industry that will be around for a long time to come....how do we pull together? I can see that we have a hard time on a tanning site...so how do we get along with other industry leaders in our market? What are you doing as a salon owner to make a difference?

Sheila in Minnesota 06-24-2005 04:41 PM

HowardTheDuck.... you are young grasshopper.

Walk the rice paper with me....you will soon see what the Masters See.....

There is a happy median between stupidity and genius

another one between apathy and zealotry

Making absurd observations is your right (unless somebody decides to censor you)

I really never liked pears.

And luckily I can understand the process that needs to be protected so that YOU can make money.


DWhite6872 06-24-2005 04:51 PM

Why is this a topic that people are affraid to discuss? I need to think of how to get in the Derm . business...they have us on a string..and we cannot get along so....I need to think of a business to make money off of our laziness.

engfant 06-24-2005 05:11 PM

I wonder what EZ JIM's stance is on this.

DWhite6872 06-24-2005 05:24 PM

I am new...but I was wondering the same thing? What about the PTAF?

Sheila in Minnesota 06-24-2005 05:30 PM

I believe you already know Engfant.

Because on any day of the week--- One could ask google for benefits of UV light - and they get a mouth full of this:

Quote:




Issue#7
October 2002

This issue of NEWSLINK on Skin Cancer Prevention from the National Council on Skin Cancer Prevention focuses on indoor tanning - a two billion dollar industry in the U.S. Some in the tanning industry promote tanning beds and lamps as "safe" or "smart" alternatives to the sun. However, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) report an estimated 700 emergency department visits per year related to indoor tanning. In addition, studies have found that sun lamps and beds could be as harmful as exposure to the sun.

This issue outlines the myths behind these claims and highlights what leading science and research tell us about artificial sources of UVB and UVA radiation. Information is featured from the two agencies that share responsibilities for regulation of sunlamps and tanning devices - the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).

In addition, the Council would like to thank Dr. Michael Franzblau with the School of Medicine at the University of California who prepared a special summary detailing steps that he took to challenge the artificial tanning industry in California.

The Council has created this quarterly newsletter as a resource about skin cancer and to connect individuals and organizations with prevention information. The American Academy of Dermatology (AAD), American Cancer Society (ACS) and The Skin Cancer Foundation (SCF) sponsor the National Council and this electronic newsletter is one way we promote skin cancer awareness. We hope you enjoy our revised format and newsletter design.

Please share NEWSLINK with others and let us know if you have ideas or programs for future issues, which will be published and distributed quarterly. The next issue will be mid-January. You can visit our website at www.skincancerprevention.org for previous editions of the newsletter and more information about the Council. Please forward comments or suggestions to michellebaker@comcast.net.

Thank you,
Dr. Allan Halpern and Dr. Susan Boiko
Co-Chairs of the National Council on Skin Cancer Prevention


Table of Contents

Food & Drug Administration Regulations on Sunlamp Products
Common Misleading Claims about Indoor Tanning from the Federal Trade Commission
California's Efforts to Regulate the Artificial Tanning Industry
Go Natural Guide from American Cancer Society
Warnings About Artificial Tanning & New Programs of The Skin Cancer Foundation
Indoor Tanning Links & Resources

FDA REGULATION OF SUNLAMP PRODUCTS

Sunlamp products including tanning beds, tanning booths, and sun beds are regulated by the FDA under the Electronic Product Radiation Control provisions of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.

What is the government's position on sunlamp products used either in tanning salons or in homes?
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) encourage people to avoid use of tanning beds and sunlamp products.

The FDA requires manufacturers to affix a warning statement on the sunlamp products which reads as follows:

DANGER-- Ultraviolet radiation. Follow instructions. Avoid overexposure. As with natural sunlight, overexposure can cause eye and skin injury and allergic reactions. Repeated exposure may cause premature aging of the skin and skin cancer.
WEAR ROTECTIVE EYEWEAR; FAILURE TO MAY RESULT IN SEVERE BURNS OR LONG-TERM INJURY TO THE EYES.
Medications or cosmetics may increase your sensitivity to the ultraviolet radiation. Consult physician before using sunlamp if you are using medications or have a history of skin problems or believe yourself especially sensitive to sunlight.
If you do not tan in the sun, you are unlikely to tan from the use of this product.
Other labeling required on the product are: recommended exposure positions, directions for achieving recommended exposure positions and a recommended exposure schedule, a statement of the time it may take before the expected results appear and designation of the ultraviolet lamp to be used in the sunlamp product.

What are the dangers from tanning?
Ultraviolet radiation from the sun, tanning beds, or from sunlamps may cause skin cancer. While skin cancer has been associated with sunburn, moderate tanning may also produce the same effect. UV radiation can also have a damaging effect on the immune system and cause premature aging of the skin, giving it a wrinkled, leathery appearance.

From The Darker Side of Tanning, developed and produced by the American Academy of Dermatology in cooperation with the FDA. More info can be found at www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhlth/index.html. (Click on "sunlamps")


COMMON MISLEADING CLAIMS ABOUT INDOOR TANNING

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and the FDA share responsibilities regulating sunlamps and tanning devices. The FTC has outlined the following advertising claims that are made by some in the indoor tanning industry - and the facts.

"You can achieve a deep year-round tan with gentle, comfortable, and safe UVA light."
Ultraviolet light is divided into two wavelength bands. Shortwave ultraviolet rays called UVB can burn the outer layer of skin. Longwave ultraviolet rays called UVA penetrate more deeply and can weaken the skin's inner connective tissue. Long-term exposure to the sun and to artificial sources of ultraviolet light contributes to the risk of developing skin cancer. Two types of skin cancer, basal cell and squamous cell, are treatable if detected early. Melanoma, another type of skin cancer, can be fatal.

"No harsh glare, so no goggles or eye shades are necessary."
Studies show that too much exposure to ultraviolet rays, including UVA rays, can damage the retina. Overexposure can burn the cornea, and repeated exposure over many years can change the structure of the lens so that it begins to cloud, forming a cataract. Left untreated, cataracts can cause blindness. The Food and Drug Administration requires tanning salons to provide protective eyewear. Closing your eyes, wearing ordinary sunglasses, and using cotton wads do not protect the cornea from the intensity of UV radiation in tanning devices. Long-term exposure to natural sunlight also can result in eye damage, but in the sun, people generally are more aware that their eyelids are burning. Under indoor UV lights, exposed skin remains cool to the touch. In addition, the intensity of lights used in tanning devices is much greater - and potentially more damaging to the eyes - than the intensity of UV rays in natural sunlight.

"Tan year round without the harmful side effects often associated with natural sunlight."
Exposure to tanning salon rays increases the damage caused by sunlight. This occurs because ultraviolet light actually thins the skin, making it less able to heal. Unprotected exposure to ultraviolet rays also results in premature skin aging. A tan is damaged skin that is more likely to wrinkle and sag than skin that hasn't been tanned. Over time, you may notice certain undesirable changes in the way your skin looks and heals. According to some skin specialists, skin that has a dry, wrinkled, leathery appearance early in middle age is a result of UV exposure that occurred in youth.

"No danger in exposure or burning."
Whether you tan indoors or out, studies show the combination of ultraviolet rays and some medicines, birth control pills, cosmetics, and soaps may accelerate skin burns or produce painful adverse skin reactions, such as rashes. In addition, tanning devices may induce common light-sensitive skin ailments like cold sores.
From the FTC's Indoor Tanning Message www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/health/indootan.htm


CALIFORNIA'S EFFORTS TO REGULATE THE ARTIFICIAL TANNING INDUSTRY

In 1986, Michael Franzblau, M.D., a dermatologist in California, was urged by the American Academy of Dermatology (AAD) to craft legislation to regulate the tanning salon industry in California, with regard to reducing patron skin cancer risk. The Academy anticipated that if California led the way, many other states might follow and adopt similar tanning salon regulations.

Dr. Franzblau crafted a resolution on tanning salon legislation that was presented to and passed by the Congress of California Dermatological Societies. He realized that for the proposed legislation to eventually become law, it would require additional support, particularly from the California Medical Association (CMA). The same resolution was introduced to the CMA House of Delegates in February 1987 where it overwhelmingly passed.

This was a crucial, strategic move since the CMA had a corps of skilled lobbyists who immediately approached key California legislators seeking sponsorship of the proposed bill. To their advantage, the only physician member of the legislature, the late Dr. William Filante, recognized the importance of the desired law. He became its sponsor and devoted a significant
amount of energy and lobbying to enlist support from his colleagues for passage of what became Assembly Bill (AB) 2139 (Filante).

After committee hearings in both the State Assembly and Senate, AB 2139 was approved in 1988 and signed into law on September 14, 1988, by then Governor Deukmajian. Although the tanning industry lobbyists mounted a vigorous campaign to gut the bill, they failed largely because of the legislative muscle of the CMA.

While there is a growing public awareness that indoor tanning represents a threat to health, the tanning industry has, unfortunately, thrived in California. AB 2139 compliance checks have produced disappointing findings. The law has no enforcement mechanism and surveys conducted by spouses of dermatologists have repeatedly identified serious violations of AB 2139 throughout California.

Thus, in l994, Dr. Franzblau carried a resolution to the American Medical Association (AMA) House of Delegates from the American Society for Dermatological Surgery which advocated the banning of indoor tanning facilities per the growing scientific evidence indicting UVA (the chief type of radiation emitted from tanning facility bulbs) as one of the causative factors for the rising incidence of melanoma. The AMA House of Delegates passed AMA Resolution 217-I-94 in December 1994 that states UVA should only be used for medicinal purposes. This remains the official policy of the AMA but there has been no organized effort to prompt the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to act on this issue.



GO NATURAL: Protect the Beauty of Your Skin Message for Teens and College Students From the American Cancer Society

For special occasions -like prom, weddings, or spring break- having a tan was once considered a necessity. But heading to a tanning bed is just as dangerous as tanning outdoors. Both can have lasting effects on your skin.

What's the Big Deal About Tanning Salons?

Tanning beds release high levels of UV radiation, which can cause premature aging of the skin and increase risk for skin cancer
Short-term indoor tanning can cause red, itchy, dry skin
Long-term indoor tanning can cause sagging, wrinkled skin
Tanning beds can also burn your skin and eyes and damage your immune system
This year, as you prepare for some of the best times in your life, make the decision to look your best. Keep your skin healthy and natural by avoiding unprotected sun exposure and indoor tanning.


WARNINGS ABOUT ARTIFICIAL TANNING AND NEW PROGRAMS OF THE SKIN CANCER FOUNDATION

Ultraviolet radiation (UVR) can cause skin cancer. Nonetheless, millions of Americans are tanning indoors annually. They are doing themselves every bit as much harm as if they were tanning outdoors in the sun.

Tanning, like burning, causes genetic damage, which accelerates skin aging and increases the risk for skin cancer. The Skin Cancer Foundation regularly publishes articles to warn the public about the harmful effects of UVR and discourage tanning in any form.

In The Skin Cancer Foundation Journal, Volume XVII, James M. Spencer, MD, MS, and Rex A. Amonette, MD, address the serious long-term risks of indoor tanning. Their article is excerpted below. For the complete article and others on this topic, contact: www.skincancer.org/artificial/index.html

The Case Against Indoor Tanning
The evidence that ultraviolet radiation causes skin cancer is overwhelming and convincing. Despite this information, the use of indoor tanning devices which emit ultraviolet (UV) light, both in tanning parlors and at home, has never been more popular. Indoor tanning is big business, with tanning trade publications reporting this as a $2 billion-a-year industry in the United States. According to industry estimates, 28 million Americans are tanning indoors annually at about 25,000 tanning salons around the country.

Indoor Tanning and Skin Cancer
What then is the evidence that associates indoor tanning with skin cancer?

Tanning Trends magazine, a trade publication, writes: "Moderate tanning has never been linked scientifically to skin cancer. In fact, by helping people tan with a reduced incidence of sunburn, indoor tanning may reduce your risk of ever contracting skin cancer." Indeed, quite the reverse is true: By increasing exposure to carcinogenic UV rays, the risk of skin cancer is increased.

The association of sunlight and the development of skin cancer was first appreciated by P.G. Unna of Berlin, who published a report on the topic in 1894. Since that time, an enormous volume of epidemiologic, clinical, and laboratory studies have supported a causal role of the ultraviolet portion of the sun's rays in the development of skin cancer. UV radiation seems to be the cause of all three common skin cancers -- basal cell carcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, and melanoma. It is thought to induce skin cancers by three mechanisms: First, ultraviolet light directly damages DNA leading to mutations; second, it produces activated oxygen molecules that in turn damage DNA and other cellular structures; and third, it leads to a localized immunosuppression, thus blocking the body's natural anti-cancer defenses.

Tanning vs. Sunburns
The association of sunburns with the development of melanoma has led the indoor tanning industry to suggest that if only these people were tan, they would not sunburn, and thus their melanoma risk would decrease. This concept is erroneous. First, it remains unclear whether the "sunburns only" hypothesis of melanoma development is true. Second, tans acquired at indoor tanning parlors have been studied and have a very poor ability to prevent sunburning. Finally and most importantly, very fair-skinned people are at the highest risk for melanoma, and they tan poorly or not at all, and burn whether at the beach or at the tanning salon. For this high risk group, the burn versus tan debate is irrelevant. Most important, the tanning process itself, even in the absence of burning, injures the skin.

Anti-Industry Campaigns
Physicians and medical groups around the world have undertaken extensive campaigns to decrease excessive exposure to ultraviolet light in order to reduce the current epidemic of skin cancer. These efforts have been successful at educating the public. Surveys show there is increasing awareness that ultraviolet light causes skin cancer. Despite this knowledge, tanning indoors and outdoors is more popular than ever.

Physicians and those concerned about preventing skin cancer can and should continue to play a major role in educating the public about the dangers of tanning, especially directing efforts towards young tanners.

References:
1. Indoor tanning: Stronger than ever. Tanning Today. March 1995; Vol V; p.1.
2. Spencer JM, Amonette RA. Indoor tanning: risks, benefits and future trends. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1995; 33(2): 288-298.
3. Unna PG. Diehistopatholigic der hautrankheiten. Berlin: A Hirshwald, 1894.
4. Robinson JK, Rigel DS, Amonette RA. Trends in sun exposure knowledge, attitudes, and behaviors: 1986 to 1996. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1997;37(2):179-186.

The article below, which appeared in Sun & Skin News, Volume 10, No.1, discusses recent research showing the link between the use of artificial tanning devices and the most common forms of skin cancer.

Strike Three Against Tanning Machines

If anyone thought the jury was still out on the danger of tanning machines, new research may provide the clincher. A study from Dartmouth Medical School in Lebanon, NH, links tanning device use to basal cell carcinoma (BCC) and squamous cell carcinoma (SCC), the most common forms of skin cancer.

The researchers interviewed 603 BCC and 293 SCC patients (plus 540 healthy subjects) about their sunbed and sunlamp use, history of sun exposure, sun sensitivity, sunburns, and other skin cancer risk factors. With all factors accounted for, tanning device users had 2.5 times the risk of SCC and 1.5 times the risk of BCC, compared to non-users.

"Our study strongly suggests that sunbed and sunlamp use may increase the incidence of nonmelanoma skin cancers," says lead author Margaret R. Karagas, PhD. "Further research is needed to determine an appropriate public health response."

Sun & Skin News readers know that we've frequently presented evidence of the harm caused by indoor tanning. Our last issue described recent research showing that people exposed to full-body tanning salon sessions have a significant increase in skin repair proteins typically associated with sun damage ("Regulations Don't Make Tanning Salons Safe," Vol. 18, No. 4 2001). We also noted previous findings that women who frequent tanning parlors have a greater incidence of melanoma, the deadliest form of skin cancer. (Source: Sun & Skin News, Vol. 19, No. 1 2002).

Campus Blues - New Program from The Skin Cancer Foundation

In conjunction with Campus Blues.com, The Skin Cancer Foundation will conduct a national Pre-Spring Break Skin Cancer Awareness program reaching college students at more than 400 colleges and universities across America. It is being developed in cooperation with the college health and counseling centers. Students will receive "Survival Kits" on campus which will include vital skin cancer prevention information from The Skin Cancer Foundation as well as program sponsors' samples, offers, and coupons. The focus is that skin cancer is preventable and that tanning, from sunlight or artificial sources, is a major health hazard.


ARTIFICIAL TANNING LINKS & RESOURCES

Indoor Tanning: All the Dangers of the Outdoor Sun, Including Skin Cancer from the AAD

Unlimited Tanning Packages May Raise Cancer Risks

Use of Tanning Devices and Risk of Basal Cell and Squamous Cell Skin Cancers from Journal of the National Cancer Institute

Indoor tanning facility density in eighty U.S. cities from the Journal of Community Health

The Case Against Indoor Tanning

Use of Indoor Tanning Sunlamps by US Youth, Ages 11-18 Years, and by Their Parent or Guardian Caregivers: Prevalence and Correlates from Pediatrics

Use of Sunscreen, Sunburning Rates, and Tanning Bed Use Among More Than 10,000 US Children and Adolescents from Pediatrics

Indoor Tanning: Facts for Consumers from FTC (PDF)

Keeping Skin Safe and Healthy from the AAP


TANNING INDUSTRY LINKS

For further information on what the tanning industry has to say about its business, visit:

Indoor Tanning Association, Inc.

International Smart Tan Network

National Tanning Training Institute

North American Alliance of Tanning Salon Owners

Suntanning Association for Education






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surely SOMEBODY out there would like ALL the mangled science and misrepresented FACTOIDS removed as the offering???

certainly with the confirmed data and current published reports - SOMEONE would think it was wise to reach out to the world with the reality of their 'managed' and psycho-engineered health and lifestyle choices?

Ez doesn't feel the industry NEEDS to improve.

and apparently the PTAF doesn't feel the need to ---react????

How do you feel Engfant? Willing to throw on a new harness and get to work?


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